VENGO controversy

[crash]

What the Stewards report actually said rather that what was in the papers [reported in another thread]: Considering it's previous start in a $100k race [3rd.from 16]. It would have to be considered a good bet, not a good Lay [did I say that?].

Race 3 – SANDOWN FASHIONS ON THE FIELD HANDICAP - 1800 metres: M. Freedman, representing L. Freedman, trainer of Vengo, advised the Stewards that it was their intention to ride the horse more aggressively early from an inside barrier to take up a forward position. Vengo had been ridden at the tail of the field from an outside barrier at his most recent start. Vengo was ridden accordingly.

Royal Rule stood flat footed and lost considerable ground.

Near the 1600m, In An Instant was tightened for room between Blue Collar Jack, which initially shifted in, and Fine Omens, which then shifted out slightly.

Rounding the home turn and early part of the straight, Helium, Fine Omens, Super Blitz, and Blue Collar Jack were all held up when unable to obtain a clear run.

After passing the 300m, In An Instant was held up when unable to obtain clear running.

N. Ryan, rider of Vengo which performed poorly, explained that whilst travelling well in the early and middle stages, when asked to improve after straightening Vengo did not respond as he would have expected and weakened badly over the concluding stages. N. Ryan added that in his view, something may be amiss with it. A veterinary examination of Vengo revealed no abnormalities. Mr Michael Freedman, who was representing Mr Lee Freedman, trainer of Vengo, stated that they believed Vengo was their best chance of success today as Vengo had worked well leading into today’s race, and they were extremely disappointed with the horse’s performance today. Mr Freedman added the horse may be better suited to being ridden more quietly in early stages. Mr Freedman also added that he would inform the Stewards should anything come to light in the ensuing days that could account for Vengo’s performance today.

[xptdriver]

Gday Crash...

that is all well and good... I have read the stewrds report from yesterday as well.. The fact remains that this horse has now started fav at it's last 2 starts and finished unplaced... and no one is saying anything about that... If people running the show were interested in protecting punters, and remember you are one of those, they should be inquiring very deeply into what is wrong with this horse. Not worrying about the betting/laying on a horse so obviously out of it's class, and has no real chance of winning, and asking why is the horse being placed in these inappropriate races.

I would not expect the stewards report to mention betting agencies in that matter, but when interviewed reps from RV certainly mentioned Betfair.. They should apologise

This reminds me of the case of a young rider who was hung out to dry by his trainer and the stewards for failing to take a run on a short priced fav.. It cost that young bloke 12 months.. What has that horse done in the corresponding 12 months.. It may have won 1 race but not much else.. And then on a radio interview it was stated that the young bloke pleaded guilty.. he said he didnt... then the stewards call him in and reprimand him.. for questioning, their questionable behaviour.. They should be apologisng for the treatment they dished out to this kid, as should the trainer...

[crash]

XPT,
At $11.15, it certainly never started favorite in the Flemington run and it was 3rd. not unplaced at Flemington.

Last 2 Vengo runs:

12/11/2005 9 9/12 6.7 SANDOWN HILLSIDE (R3) 1800 LY1 50K N RYAN 2 55.5 [D] 1.50.93 35.89/36.64 $2.38F 4,3 93 1.4
DANERETTE DRUMBEATER BLUE COLLAR JACK
Vengo ridden forward, settled down 4th 3lens 2 wide cover, perfect trail, joined in 3 wide 400, soon under pressure, couldn't go on. Maybe better ridden quietly.

3/11/2005 15 3/16 2.4 FLEMINGTON (R2) 1800 LY1 45 101.5K N RYAN 14 53.5 [G] 1.49.63 36.09/35.19 $11 15 ,16 104 3.7 -0.1
YOUTHS EDGE JOSE AMIGO VENGO
Vengo at rear with the winner, it railed this one went around the field, it hit front at 200, this one 4L off him wider, ran on but conceded too much with the run.

The above run does seem to explain the change in tactics metioned to Stewards.

Maybe Vengo doesn't handle the DEAD or Hillside [?] at that class, might be the reason for the huge LAY?

[xptdriver]

Last 2 Vengo runs:

12/11/2005 9 9/12 6.7 SANDOWN HILLSIDE (R3) 1800 LY1 50K N RYAN 2 55.5 [D] 1.50.93 35.89/36.64 $2.38F 4,3 93 1.4
DANERETTE DRUMBEATER BLUE COLLAR JACK
Vengo ridden forward, settled down 4th 3lens 2 wide cover, perfect trail, joined in 3 wide 400, soon under pressure, couldn't go on. Maybe better ridden quietly.

3/11/2005 15 3/16 2.4 FLEMINGTON (R2) 1800 LY1 45 101.5K N RYAN 14 53.5 [G] 1.49.63 36.09/35.19 $11 15 ,16 104 3.7 -0.1
YOUTHS EDGE JOSE AMIGO VENGO
Vengo at rear with the winner, it railed this one went around the field, it hit front at 200, this one 4L off him wider, ran on but conceded too much with the run.

Maybe doesn't handle the DEAD or Hillside [?] at that class, might be the reason for the huge LAY?


Gday Crash

I am positive that class is the problem at this stage of the horses career.. I only have last 5 start form, and its win at geelong in a class 3 doesnt seem to me to be too impressive.. it then stepped up IMO 5 classes and was beaten 2.4

5 classes... they have to be one out of the box to be able to do that.. I dont think Vengo is... I said in my original post on the other thread that the stewrds maybe should have done their form on the horse with a bit more diligence, and they would have seen that the horse was way way unders

[crash]

XPT
Edited into my last post re: your comment before that.

"XPT,
At $11.15, it certainly never started favorite in the Flemington run and it was 3rd. not unplaced at Flemington."

It's class rise effort WAS out of the box to come third in a $100k race.

[xptdriver]

XPT
Edited into my last post re: your comment before that.

"XPT,
At $11.15, it certainly never started favorite in the Flemington run and it was 3rd. not unplaced at Flemington."

It's class rise effort WAS out of the box to come third in a $100k race.
Gday Crash

I never said it started fav at Flemmo.... I said it started fav last 2 starts.. Sandown and Ballarat... we are going to have to just disagree, I guess, on where this horse is going...

The horse won his maiden at Mornington at 1.36$ by .2 length at its 4th race start

then won it's cl 1 next start by 2 lengths at 3.25$ F

it finished thereabouts at its next 3 starts in town , but did not win.. twice as fav at Sandown and Moonee Valley, there were two restricted races and one class 6.. then for some reason it is beaten 30 lengths at Caulfield in an open worth 50K, it was obvioulsy forced to BT as it ran in a trial at Cranbourne before going to the paddock..

When it returned after 205 days, it won it's class 3 at Geelong by .8 at 11/2
Now that form to me does not say let's place it in a Restricted Race worth 100k at flemmo.. it says lets go to Mornington and find a nice class 4 this thing can win, or have an easy class 3 win somehere

then we have the flemmo race you are talking about, I think the run there may well have been flukey... then sandown where the controversy erupted and finally yesterday's race.. where on both occassions it disappeared without a trace

For mine the form is not that good, others may/will disagree, but punting is all about opinion..

Looking at the race at Flemmo... it was a R1LY, but carried 101k in prizemoney... I guess that would be below average or average for carnival time... I am guessing there... as I dont know...

That is just my opinion.. This is not a horse that I woud ever back, but I will lay it till the cows come home... I think it may be overrated

[crash]

Nothing really to disagree on mate. I haven't an opinion either way. Dodginess happens all the time in racing and a lot of jockey I think earn more money pulling or interfering in races than actually winning [what a jockey I new once told me]. Not saying it happened in this instance though:-)

"That is just my opinion.. This is not a horse that I would ever back, but I will lay it till the cows come home... I think it may be overrated"

I'd agree there as far as Sandown is concerned. Horse love it or hate it. 2 failures there is enough to put a lot a punters off. Personally I think it's Flem. effort stuffed it and it came out weak next start. I wouldn't have laid it for big bucks though unless I 'knew somthinh". Think it needed a spell after it's Flem. effort perhaps if everything was 'kosher'.

Cheers.

[crash]

My apologies XPT,

I had no idea it had [another] run since Sandown at Ballarat, I thought you were referring to the Flemington run. Sorry for the confusion.

Quote: "I never said it started fav at Flemmo.... I said it started fav last 2 starts.. Sandown and Ballarat... we are going to have to just disagree, I guess, on where this horse is going..." End quote.

[xptdriver]

My apologies XPT,

I had no idea it had [another] run since Sandown at Ballarat, I thought you were referring to the Flemington run. Sorry for the confusion.

Quote: "I never said it started fav at Flemmo.... I said it started fav last 2 starts.. Sandown and Ballarat... we are going to have to just disagree, I guess, on where this horse is going..." End quote.

No worries mate... I have been down for thre count with the flu all arvo.. only just stuck my head back up to post some ratings elsewhere....

[Duritz]

For the record, I too thought he was a great lay at sandown. I priced him as a 10/1 chance in the race and bet around him. People sometimes go overboard on the Freedman factor.

Fact it, the stewards are like RV - they want Betfair out. So, little wonder when a favourite gets beaten, the first thing these dinosaurs of modern racing do is throw mud.

"It's Betfair's fault. Someone layed a horse on betfair, therefore crookery must be involved."

If you sling enough mud, some will stick, that's their theory. Never mind having any evidence, or for that matter any idea, just sling some mud at Betfair and try to tarnish them. Nevermind that they have said they'll share all the info, don't worry about investigating that first before you start slinging mud, just sling first, ask questions later. And if it turns out (shock horror) that it was all on the level, will there be an apology? Don't hold your breath.

The racing bodies are a disgrace. I can now, nearly 100 years on, understand a little of how John Wren must have felt.

And, of course, Vengo at Ballarat? S**thouse. (Granted, it was another leader's track but the horse was this time ridden back and failed to fire) Again. It's an AVERAGE BEAST! As for stewards saying "Well, we thought on the basis of running 3rd in a 100,000 race it'd be a good bet, not a good lay", well perhaps they're filthy because they thought it was such a good bet that they actually BACKED IT. THAT's what should be investigated - the stewards! If the stewards are saying, "This horse was a good bet", I start to worry.

Also, note to the stewards - a $100,000 restricted race ain't the same as a $100,000 listed race, brother. Wasn't a great race, Mr. Steward. Perhaps that's why you're STEWARDS, not professional FORM ANALYSTS. You may be wannabe form analysts but if your efforts at finding Vengo as a "good bet" based on the prizemoney of it's run previous start, then you're a bunch of spastics as analysts.

[Mark]

"Maybe Vengo doesn't handle the DEAD or Hillside [?] at that class, might be the reason for the huge LAY?"


Huge lay ?????, $70,000 on Fav in a Saturday race??, maybe 30 years ago that amount was a fair lay. These days it's a lot less than huge.

[crash]

What would I know Mark. I rarely get to 'Lay' anything nowadays 8-)

Classic Kala which I scored nicely on last week to win [and tri], should start fav. tommorow. It will LOSE.

[gazman]

i had a lay once that cost me a lot more than $70,000...cheers.gazman...

[Mark]

One old bugger, one poor bugger.

[crash]

Mark, Lay Classic Karla in Brisbane. It's best has been and gone this prep. Will or should start Fav.

[Mark]

A very poor race as usual. I'll be laying Double Portion as well...absolutely flogged last week and still couldn't win.

[Panther]

The only controversy has been the shameful and disgraceful behaviour of the Chief Steward

[crash]

Mark,
Beau will be all over them. Zacielow [a class way above all of them here, but looks bad from it's 'dead' runs, will kill them all at odds if it runs well and the track is good].

[Mark]

Agreed, Zacielo looks the best horse, but is harshly weighted. No bet for me. Will lay 8 & possibly 1.