Betfair - Licence

[La Mer]

The upper house of the Tasmanian parliament this afternoon vote 14 to nil in favour of the betting exchange (Betfair) legislation with four minor amendments.

The bill now returns to the lower house tonight and will become law in a few hours time (the Tasmanian government have already agreed to the amendments).

Let the revolution begin.

[mad]

What exactly will this new format do, for us punters, that it doesn't at the moment? Will their be a new website or how will things be affected?

[jfc]

Tremendous news.

Hopefully this will improve liquidity.

And if the TABs introduce rival exchanges there will be fun times ahead.

Some night meetings here to tap into the UK demographic could help spice things up.

[La Mer]

What exactly will this new format do, for us punters, that it doesn't at the moment? Will their be a new website or how will things be affected?

Basically Mad it will give new users better returns as most markets are bet to around 105% or less whereas the tote operators bet to 117% (win betting) plus - the plus being the rounding down of dividends.

However, there is a commission to be paid to Betfair of up to 5% on actual winnings per event. But even allowing for that on most occasions the punter is far better off.

To have a read of what Betfair offers, go to: http://www.betfair.com/

[BJ]

Even if you choose not to use Betfair, I believe that the punter will benefit regardless. Bookies will no longer be able to sit on a 150% market and expect people to punt with them.
You just have to take a look at the fixed odds markets Centrebet offers compared with Betfair on the UK races. They are very comparable, and closer to 107% than 150%.

[mad]

Thanks for the reply La Mer,

However i think i am missing something. Can't we use Betfair in this manner already? However if i am to take something from jfc's post, the granting of a license over here will allow for greater liquidity on events (more Aussie punters using Betfair to bet on events) at greater prices than currently being offered. Am i getting the point?

[BJ]

Thanks for the reply La Mer,

However i think i am missing something. Can't we use Betfair in this manner already? However if i am to take something from jfc's post, the granting of a license over here will allow for greater liquidity on events (more Aussie punters using Betfair to bet on events) at greater prices than currently being offered. Am i getting the point?

I think because they are an exchange as opposed to a bookmaker, that the loophole existed to allow us to bet with them. The law says no bets to be placed with a bookmaker not licensed in Australia. (correct me if I am wrong)..

Not much will change now, but it will become an accepted form of betting because they will be licensed. The law will now back us up getting our money (not that I have ever had any trouble anyway) back from them, whereas before we were probably alone on this. They are now able to advertise in Tasmania.

I really don't think too much will change apart from this, but now that it is accepted, people will be more likely to join up. More money being traded can only be a good thing.

[jfc]

Thanks for the reply La Mer,

However i think i am missing something. Can't we use Betfair in this manner already? However if i am to take something from jfc's post, the granting of a license over here will allow for greater liquidity on events (more Aussie punters using Betfair to bet on events) at greater prices than currently being offered. Am i getting the point?

The legality of betting on Australian races is a grey area.

La Mer's comment about a ~105% market only applies if you are a market taker. That is, if you take the price on offer.

But you can instead be a market maker. I won't try to explain that here but just give an example.

One horse in the 1st UK (=very legal and liquid) race tonight has back/lay prices of $18/$21.

A market maker would take the $18 on offer.

A market maker might instead offer to back it at $20. Much better value, but there's no guarantee your bet will be snapped up by a layer.

Once liquidity improves here, the prospects of market makers being matched improves greatly. As does the prospect of effectively betting to a near of sub-100% market.

Many more desirable options available, and once you play about a bit they'll seem like child's play.

[crash]

I think perhaps Betfair will be a great benefit to TAB punters too eventualy. The only reason the TAB have been charging the take they have is because they haven't had any real competition.
Now that they have [and Betfair will spread to other states], the TAB will compete, just as Quantas had too [and did] when they suddenly had competition.

[La Mer]

The legality of betting on Australian races is a grey area.

La Mer's comment about a ~105% market only applies if you are a market taker. That is, if you take the price on offer.

But you can instead be a market maker. I won't try to explain that here but just give an example. .

I agree JFC, I was merely giving an assessment of the closing markets, which is not to say that better prices in many cases would have been on offer sometime during the betting. In fact, I would say state that the 'best-on-offer' prices for the complete field would be well below 100% on many/most occasions.

[zorro]

Despite the ranting of the TAB's (and their mouthpieces) the nett effect to the Aussie punter of Tassie granting a licence to Betfair will be IMHO - Sweet F.A.
The punter (gambler really) who sits in the pub on a Saturday will not suddenly spend his day at home in front of the computer betting and laying in every race that appears on the TV.
The more sophisticated punter and those with a vested interest (e.g. the bookies) are already using Betfair - no change again.
If the TAB's decide (or are compelled) to reduce their % takeouts it would be great but I am not holding my breathe. If they do it will probably be a small reduction in the Win/Place % offset by an increase in the exotics %'s where Betfair doesn't compete.

[jfc]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/horseracing/with-right-solutions-betfair-can-strengthen-our-industry/2005/11/24/1132703315603.html

Thought-provoking and insightful article by a Sydney bookmaker (name omitted through oversight).

While an on course Betfair presence is desirable I doubt his suggested way is workable.

Anyone on-course with a Betfair account and a sexy phone/PDA would be better off financially accessing Betfair directly.

A situation where bookmakers can easily hedge on Betfair would probably be a simpler and more effective alternative.

[La Mer]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/horseracing/with-right-solutions-betfair-can-strengthen-our-industry/2005/11/24/1132703315603.html

Thought-provoking and insightful article by a Sydney bookmaker (name omitted through oversight). .

JFC, The bookie was Robbie Waterhouse.

[Punter4211]

Stand Back guys, the "Poo" is about to hit the fan.....

There are many with much to loose when Betfair starts up here and advertises freely..

They have been operating "undercover" for a while now and now they are out in the open... The times of change are upon us..

Will the TAB's & Race clubs start their own Betting Exchanges ?

Will some "Media Moguls" control the exposure form all parties because of their dual interests?

Will some scream foul every time a favorite gets rolled?

Will the punter really get a better deal? after all they have to be on the Internet... What about the pubs and clubs? the golden oldies that don't have access to the Internet?

They'll be a flurry of new betting schemes designed to take the unwary's money, that's for sure...

Picking losers should be easy, god knows I've been doing it for years, unintentionally.

Hang on to your hats guys (& Gals) it's going to be a bumpy ride till it shakes down

[darkydog2002]

Its london to a brick the TAB will INCREASE the % takeout to make up for the expected LOSS of revenue to BETFAIR,
NOT reduce it.
,

My reasoning here is that the average punter sitting in the TAB or CLUB would never have heard of BETFAIR and if they did they couldn,t care less one way or the other.
They bet as a form of entertainment and relaxation and not as a way of making money.

Cynical.Probably.And I will stand corrected if I am wrong.

Cheers.
darky.

[Punter4211]

Its london to a brick the TAB will INCREASE the % takeout to make up for the expected LOSS of revenue to BETFAIR,
NOT reduce it.
,

My reasoning here is that the average punter sitting in the TAB or CLUB would never have heard of BETFAIR and if they did they couldn,t care less one way or the other.
They bet as a form of entertainment and relaxation and not as a way of making money.

Cynical.Probably.And I will stand corrected if I am wrong.

Cheers.
darky.

Dear Darky,

You are in fact quite right!

But how much do the Tab's really expect to loose to Betfair. If the "mug"punters bet for entertainment then that leaves the serious punter to do as they have always done, Go to the track, bet with Darwin, or seek a better deal elsewhere, like betfair.

I feel sorry for the hundreds (yes even thousands) of suckers that get dragged into betting schemes on the promise of easy riches...

Pick up a copy of your racing form newspaper and esimate how much was spent on advertising! At $500 -$800 each ad, there's a lot of suckers paying for it.

Readers, if you're new to betting and haven't formulated your own plan, or can't be sure what to back (or lay) then my advice is DON'T.. Professionals work longer hours than most "ordinary" workers (before raceday) and there's no gaurantee of success

If you can't make up your own mind about a runner, or you don't know how to handicap a race, then DON'T BUY SOMEONE ELSES IDEAS. Truly, they probably know less about the game than you do. They do however know how to laugh all the way to the bank by selling their schemes.

The only reason anyone wants to sell their "winning ideas" is because it's worthless! If these schemes were sucessful they'd use them themselves! (why have the hassle of dealing with customers?)

We are about to see a flood of these schemes on the market in the run up to christmas (all targeting Betfair)

Who will be the loosers after the shakedown? --- Racing in general...

[BJ]

Gee, if I didn't have a conscience I would be one of them.
I would imagine the only thing better than laughing, would be laughing all the way to the bank.

[BJ]

And...
Since I started betting full time, I have turned over about $650,000. I would estimate that less than $500 of that was placed on the tote.
Does this mean that the tote has missed out on all of that? No. The simple answer is, if the tote was my only option, I would have turned over $0.

When I place a bet on Betfair, (~70% of my betting is done here) chances are, some of the people that have laid my bets are going to go and back the same horse on the tote. When I bet with the bookies, the chances are that some of that money will find its way to the tote.

Now if even 10% of the money that I bet indirectly ends up on the tote, then that is $65,000 that they would not have seen otherwise.

Hopefully some of you will understand what I am trying to say.

[La Mer]

And...
Since I started betting full time, I have turned over about $650,000. I would estimate that less than $500 of that was placed on the tote.
Does this mean that the tote has missed out on all of that? No. The simple answer is, if the tote was my only option, I would have turned over $0.

When I place a bet on Betfair, (~70% of my betting is done here) chances are, some of the people that have laid my bets are going to go and back the same horse on the tote. When I bet with the bookies, the chances are that some of that money will find its way to the tote.

Now if even 10% of the money that I bet indirectly ends up on the tote, then that is $65,000 that they would not have seen otherwise.

Hopefully some of you will understand what I am trying to say.

It's a pity many more of those scaremongers don't understand more about what you've explained BJ. IMHO that's the one of the reasons the tote turnover has increased since Betfair have been on the scene.

[darkydog2002]

Your quite right .
Any sane , sensible punter bets either BOOKMAKER or BETFAIR.

Sad as it is, very few in my opinion share our view.

Cheers.
darky.

[zeditave]

Betfair will tighten bookies markets once they are allowed to trade with an exchange, and will only continue to improve tote pools due to the arbitraging/trading factor - in nearly 3yrs of Betfair covering Aus racing - have any tote pools gone down? They certainly hadn't before the TVN/Sky saga....

TAB execs just do not understand their market at all - with the exception of Dick McIlwain at UniTAB - he sounds like he has his head screwed on properly.

[Punter4211]

Betfair will tighten bookies markets once they are allowed to trade with an exchange, and will only continue to improve tote pools due to the arbitraging/trading factor - in nearly 3yrs of Betfair covering Aus racing - have any tote pools gone down? They certainly hadn't before the TVN/Sky saga....

TAB execs just do not understand their market at all - with the exception of Dick McIlwain at UniTAB - he sounds like he has his head screwed on properly.
Good Comments Zedative, But only time will tell...I suspect it will be a rough ride till it shakes down, perhaps around winter next year..
Anybody know the details of the 4 amendments in Tassie parliment?


Regards
OzPunter

[La Mer]

Good Comments Zedative, But only time will tell...I suspect it will be a rough ride till it shakes down, perhaps around winter next year..
Anybody know the details of the 4 amendments in Tassie parliment? OzPunter

One was to do with a tri-annual socio-economic review of the impact of betting exchanges - there will be more than one, Betdaq are also likely to apply for a licence as well within the next 12 months , the other three had to do with the payment methods/schedules.

[Chrome Prince]

An interesting idea is if they amend legislation to let Betfair trade in Australia (or rather make it legal to use Betfair from Australia), isn't the next step to grant someone like Mark Read an Australian exchange licence?

Perhaps this is exactly why the TAB is up in arms, not the Betfair debate, but rather the whole concept of an exchange.

If the TAB was smart, they would try and lobby Parliament to also offer an exchange service, thereby retaining money for the racing industry and the Government.

However, they cannot do this because they could not compete with the low commissions of Betfair, therefore, it's easier just to kick up a fuss, citing all sorts of urban legends about corruption.

[jfc]

One was to do with a tri-annual socio-economic review of the impact of betting exchanges - there will be more than one, Betdaq are also likely to apply for a licence as well within the next 12 months , the other three had to do with the payment methods/schedules.

http://mistupid.com/months/annivnames.htm

I think such triennial reviews are fantastic ideas.

Hopefully all authorities will make them a condition of all future gaming-related licences - particularly Poker machines, Lotteries, Lotto, Keno, drug-money-laundering High Roller rooms, not to mention 23% + round-down rakes in racing.

[Punter4211]

An interesting idea is if they amend legislation to let Betfair trade in Australia (or rather make it legal to use Betfair from Australia), isn't the next step to grant someone like Mark Read an Australian exchange licence?

Perhaps this is exactly why the TAB is up in arms, not the Betfair debate, but rather the whole concept of an exchange.

If the TAB was smart, they would try and lobby Parliament to also offer an exchange service, thereby retaining money for the racing industry and the Government.

However, they cannot do this because they could not compete with the low commissions of Betfair, therefore, it's easier just to kick up a fuss, citing all sorts of urban legends about corruption.
Very True....

In my opinion, Australian Racing should be opened up to the world... Japan, China, India, USA, UK, Europe... The Clubs should have their own betting exchanges and keep the profits... How much would the Melbourne Cup pull for the industry? All we need is a sensible fee structure on winnings to support the clubs individually... (how much do the banks make out of a .5% increase in rates?)

Change is upon us, like it or not and the clubs need to compete...

OzPunter