Betting Exchanges to be made illegal.

[Neil]

Heard on the radio today that there will most likely be an announcement next week that Betting Exchanges will be made illegal for all Australians to use and that banks will have to disallow use of credit cards.

[nevets]

We'll work around it even if i have to use cheques

[BF]

Hi all
If the announcement is that the ARB dont wish to allow a license to an exchange in Australia,Im not happy about it but i will cop it.

I dont see how they can force banks to not allow their customers to spend their own money where they like. Im sure banks dont tell TABs who can and cannot bet with them.

I personally dont use Betfair on Australian Racing but would like to. If Im going to bet I will bet where I can get the most for my dollar, so I only use it for overseas racing of a night and I dont see why I should be stopped because the TABs and Bookies fear competition will eat into their inflated margins.

The TABs have used all types of garbage in their arguments but what about the parasite comparison. Are the TABS willing to pay product fees to all the sporting bodies that their Sportstab bets on, I doubt it They would owe some money if they did, to all the sports across Europe and America that they happily take bets on.

The other is that they dont want us betting overseas as it doesnt bring money here yet if you go to their open an account page, they will take customers from all but 3 countries. Very hypocritical.

I think we should be allowed to bet on overseas horse racing and sports at the very least,as the Tab pays nothing to these bodies. I am making reasonable amounts from doing this and wont be happy if this is taken from me, basically our freedom of choice is being taken away because a private company fears competition. Who do we talk to in regard sto these issues as it seems there is no real voice of the Punter being heard.

One other thing, wouldnt making it illegal to bet with an exchange have to be argued in parliament first, I hope you cant just create a law.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: BF on 2003-06-29 17:17 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: BF on 2003-06-29 17:18 ]</font>

[davyork]

Hi
"Betfair is proud to announce that it has won a Queen’s Award for Enterprise, in the Innovation category, for 2003.

The award is the latest and most significant endorsement the company has received, and will allow Betfair to carry the Queen’s Award emblem on its site for the next five years.

A Queen’s Award is given (as its name suggests) by the Queen, on the recommendation of the Prime Minister, and following a full assessment by the Department of Trade and Industry."
A company get's a Queen's Award yet is deemed illegal!

[xanadu]

Firstly, let me state that I have a neutral position on the pros and cons of Betfair being able to operate here. I think the TAB perceives this operator as a legitimate threat. Accordingly, a slumbering monolith has now been stirred into action and it has some very powerful allies so we will have to wait and see what happens.
However, the point I make is that Betfair operates in an environment in Britain where let's face it, racing is in a somewhat dubious state in relation to average prizemoney per race and the general quality of runners in fields with only a small number of runners. Look what Choisir did to their best in the space of one week!
In Australia, yes, we have some problems with our providers of betting services and the crippling taxes imposed upon the average punter.
Apart from this, our system is structured in such a way to ensure that a large portion of funds goes into increased prizemoney and facilities at the tracks. Although I believe there is a case for rationalisation of some administration to enable even higher prizemoney to be paid. This has a beneficial flow-on effect by making it worthwhile for new participants to enter the industry and outlay huge sums to hopefully share in the spoils. The breeding industry also benefits and breeders(local and overseas) are willing to pump large sums into their quest of finding a champion.
What I am saying is that a portion of every dollar bet here goes to the benefit of Australian racing unlike in England.
There is too much at stake here for the jolly green monolith to not react and I think I know who will win in the long-run.
Good luck in your endeavours but be prepared for a fairly predictable outcome.

Cheers.

[zeditave]

I think you'll find the average race in the UK has quite healthy prizemoney, they just don't have the ridiculously high amounts for the big races that we are accustomed to, which, more often than not, goes to battlers like Cojuangco, the Inghams, Dato Tan Chin Nam etc.

Scraping 10% off the top echelon of races to boost the bottom rung would be far more beneficial than crap like running nine races on a Saturday in town, a race every five minutes etc blah blah...

[xanadu]

I hope a large number of our forum contributors saw this morning's episode of Racing Retro during which the isuue of Betting Exchanges was discussed in depth by a range of racing officials.
It was very informative and I learned something which I previously was not aware of. That in W.A. legislation already exists for prosecution of clients betting with such entities. Did you get that? The Exchange cannot currently be prosecuted but clients can(although no such action has as yet been taken). So, sandgropers don't be too concerned but be aware!
The issues covered were the effect on Govt revenue(ie. commercial return to the Aust authorities), Aust taxes revenues, social impact on clients and INTEGRITY-an issue not to be taken too lightly. Conspiracy, coercion and exchange rate differnces were also covered. The ARB is prepared to talk to the operators but there is a ground-swell of all-out opposition to these operators growing. The slumbering monolith has well and truly been stirred into action so be prepared for assertive action being instigated in the very near future.

Cheers.

[GettingItRight]

Interesting half page article about betting exchanges in todays AFR (7/7/2003 Page 15). Seems all is not lost. The ARB is in favour of betting exchanges provided they pay the appropraite taxes and charges. Article goes on to say it is expected that "all (taskforce) parties would come to a consensus".

One senior state gaming department official was quoted as saying "This whole betting exchange taskforce is a wank set up by the NSW government..". Here here.

[umrum]

would this include an off shore operator like
dial a bet which operates out of vanuatu

[crash]

Ditto to what Roman Koz had to say re Betfair in Practical Punter mag. Why should we support the TAB's 115% book???????????

[Mr X]

xanadu

I saw the Racing Retro show. It did have some points to make. However you must remember that the show is owned by TAB Ltd who have a vested interest in this debate. As such they only gave half the story. They did not point out any benefits of exchanges but only focused on the bad points and then emphasised these to the point of exaggeration. I did not see anything too wrong with what was said on the show. I was more concerned with what was not said. There is an old saying "There's three sides to every story". If you only hear one side of the story and no other views it can sound very convincing and reasonable. Hear the other side and suddenly it is not so reasonable.

I thought the ARB attitude was very sensible. They said there were 4 criteria that all betting operators should meet and they were working through with Betfair etc to see if the common ground could be reached on the 4 criteria. Sane and sensible stuff.

You say there is a groundswell of all out opposition to exchanges. Where is the evidence for this?????? At the top of this thread we were told that exchanges were finished and the issue had been decided. They were to be banned last week. But nothing happened. So who leaked this info to Max Presnell? And who gained from the leak? Not Betfair.

Read the Financial Review article. Indications there are of no groundswell of all out opposition. You only have to look at most message boards to see punters are not screaming for exchanges to be banned.

I think it is most telling that TABs and Bookies associations are more against exchanges than the ARB. That tells me it is vested commercial interests that are most threatened in this debate. And it is those very interests that profit at the expense of punters.

[xanadu]

Mr X,

The entities I was referring to were the W.A. TAB and NSW TAB, definitely not the punters. However, they have some very powerful allies in politicians and are a source of funds to the respective State Govts, who, therefore have a vested interest in this issue. Accordingly, politicians will be lobbied to support the anti-betting exchange cause(pretty powerful allies I am sure you would agree?
I personally am more concerned with the insidious practice of rounding down dividends on the TAB. At the very least, the rounding-down should be to the nearest $0.05 downwards, not the nearest $0.10 downwards. I am currently contemplating whether to prepare a petition to lobby the racing minister on this matter.

Cheers.

[becareful]

Exactly HOW are they going to ban the exchanges????

As Xanadu points out the TABS have strong relationships with their respective State Governments and therefore have political power at that level. The problem is the State Governments, as far as I understand it, have absolutely no power to legislate against a betting company not located in their particular state. All they can do is to make it illegal for the citizens within the state to use the foreign operator (ie. like the existing NSW law) and politely ask the operator to put a message on their site - they cannot force the operator to "block" transactions.

The problem, of course, is that they have absolutely no power to actually police the law (as evidenced by the fact that not a single NSW punter has been prosecuted under the existing law since it was passed). How, exactly, is the NSW Police supposed to find out who is using an offshore gambling operator (assuming they even gave a damn - I suspect they have slightly higher priorities!)?

[Neil]

It was very convenient for Max Presnell to go on radio last week talking as if it was just about a certainty that Betting Exchanges were about to be made illegal.

I wonder who told him? Knowing of course that he would broadcast it around the country.

There are numerous legal problems involved in drafting any legislation designed to specifically restrict Betting Exchanges without others being caught up in the legislation.

I have heard that drafting legislation could even make it illegal to bet on TABs online!

There are also issues of state rights and trade between states. And it goes on...

[puntz]

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: puntz on 2003-08-15 13:20 ]</font>

[Mark]

Anybody see the rider on Betfair markets today?. I don't know how long it's been there but I only noticed it today.
"Users should be aware that they are NOT allowed to bet on this event if they are physically present in NSW"
If the government has made them put that there then what a bunch of 'merchant bankers' our so-called leaders are.
That's rhyming slang for w......!

[kenchar]

Typicle bloody Govts whether be state or federal,If it dont suit your MATES get rid of it.Seriously though I think Neil is right if you look under seperation of powers in our constitution they cant do it.
Cheers

[zeditave]

I think you'll find that bit about the NSW law has been there for about a month now... and markets are as strong as ever!

[zeditave]

brilliant response to the TaskForce report from Betfair can be read here...

http://www.virtualformguide.com/cgi-bin/tvf/displaynewsitem.pl?20030716taskforce.txt