Chuck's Top 30 horses of All Time

[Chuck]

Okay, from top to bottom, one a day, my top 30 horses of all time

30. AMOUNIS: Horse of the 20's, whose main wins included The Cox Plate, 2 Epsoms, and a Caulfield Cup as an 8 year old, carrying 61 kgs

[Chuck]

29. TODMAN: Awesome 2YO, winner of the inaugral Golden Slipper, and backed it up with wins in the Champagne, Futurity, Lightnign Stks and Cadbury Guineas - All of which cam within his 12 Career Starts!

[ijuandaQLD]

hey chuck r these going to be australian horses or worldwide

[wesmip1]

Chuck,

I am enjoying this ....

keep it up.

[Real Deal]

Phar Lap/Makybe Diva/Kingston Town/Tulloch


See you in a month to find out. hehe

[Chuck]

Australian horses ONLY

28. HAREEBA: Excellent sprinter which won Group 1s Australia Stks, George Ryder, Stanley Wooten Stakes and Southcorp Packaging Stks amongst its 11 wins from 26 starts

[Chuck]

27. TOBIN BRONZE: Classy middle distance horse that won 24 from 48, best of which included 2 Cox Plates and a Caulfield Cup

[Chuck]

26. VO ROGUE: Veteran horse of 83 starts that was only ever comfortable when leading. Had 3 C.F.Orrs and 2 Australian Cups to his name amongst his 26 wins

[Chuck]

25. RISING FAST: Another veteran, known best for his amazing Cox Plate / Caulfield Cup / Melbourne Cup triple.

[Chuck]

24. PETER PAN: Terrific stayer who won consecutive Melbourne Cups in 33-34. Also had an AJC Derby and Mackinnon Stakes to his name with a 60% winning record

[SunsetCoast]

Any 'science' behind your top 30 membership list chuck?
And if you're using a computer to help collate suggest you upgrade to something a bit quicker LOL

[Chuck]

nope and nope

[Raw Instinct]

Great work chuck I have been checking in everyday just to look at your list even funnir is the fact that I have heard of all the horses so far, Quick question wasn't Amounis the horse in which the conspiracy with Pharlap being scratched for the Caulfield Cup way back when?

[Chuck]

thats right. read about it here:

http://melbournecup.racingandsports.com.au/index.asp?f=displayNews&NID=73246

[Chuck]

btw got a slightly controversial one coming up next at no. 23 (most will thing it should have been higher)

[Raw Instinct]

I thought that was the horse and what a hell of a story you have to really feel sorry for the bookies there don't you ............ Not :)

[Sportz]

Well, a bit of a big call to have Peter Pan and Rising Fast down that low too, Chuck. Many would have them in the top 10 or just outside. Not criticising you though. They're all great horses, and it's all very interesting.

[Chuck]

well i think most people will have this in their top 10...

[Raw Instinct]

I am going to take a stab and say this horse may have ran around in the all cerise on the Hawkes stable.

[umrum]

maybe a triple melb cup winning mare?

[4theboyz]

well i think most people will have this in their top 10...



yep

[Chuck]

Well, i said it would come:

23 (I'm regretting this already). CARBINE: This terrific stayer had 33 wins from 43 starts, only once missing a place. Wins included staying races Sydney Cup (Twice), and Melbourne Cup

[La Mer]

Well, i said it would come:

23 (I'm regretting this already). CARBINE: This terrific stayer had 33 wins from 43 starts, only once missing a place. Wins included staying races Sydney Cup (Twice), and Melbourne Cup

Crikey, the other 22 in front of it must be pretty good. :-)

[Raw Instinct]

That is a shock but I guess it raced so long ago how would we know not like any of us saw it race as could be said for alot of horses who are going to be on this list. I have one horse in particular that I am waiting to see come up but I am thinking he will atleast be top 10.

[Chuck]

Sorry, missed yesterday so there will be two today -

22. SUPER IMPOSE: Once owning the record for most prizemoney, he had 2 Doncasters, 2 Epsoms and a Cox Plate amongst his 20 wins

21. FLIGHT: Brilliant mare of her time that won 24 of 65, including 2 Cox Plates and Mackinnon Stks, and 2 Craven Plates

[Chuck]

20. RUBITON: Star galloper that had wins spread over many distances. Won the Newmarket, Oakleigh and Futurity; and also the Cox Plate, Caulfield Stks and Mackinnon plus two Manikato Stks

[Chuck]

19. CHATHAM: Highly underrated galloper that won 13 from 31. Had 2 Cox Plates to his name, as well as 2 Epsoms, 3 Craven Plates, a Caulfield Stks, All Aged Stks and a Doncaster

[Chuck]

18. LONHRO: The very similar son of Octagonal, Lonhro had an incredible 26 wins from 35 starts. Has an enormous list of Group 1s to his name, winning the Caulfield Guineas, 2 Caulfield Stks, a Mackinnon and a C.F.Orr in Melbourne, and 2 George Ryders, a Queen Elizabeth and a George Main in Sydney to name some of his group 1 wins. These were capped off by an incredible come from behind win in the Australian Cup in 2004

[Chuck]

17. OCTAGONAL: And now the Big O himself, winner of 14 races from 28 starts with an equally impressive win list to his son. Won the Cox Plate, Cadbury and Rosehill Guineas, AJC Derby, 2 Mercedes Classics, and Underwood Stks, a Chipping Norton and an Australian Cup

[Chuck]

Forgot yesterday, so two today:

16. GALILEE: Very good stayer that won 18 from 36. Wins included the Melbourne Cup, a Caulfield Cup, a Sydney Cup, the Queen Elizabeth and the Toorak Hcp

15. MAKYBE DIVA: Historic mare that is the only horse to have won 3 Melbourne Cups - these coming in the years 2003-5. Also had wins in the Cox Plate, Australian Cup, BMW and the Sydney Cup out of 14 wins

[Raw Instinct]

Interesting there Chuck thought you may have had Makybe a little higher to be honest but it is your list and I can't really argue so far will be interesting to see what happens from here on in.

[Chuck]

achievements speak for themselves, however she really didn't beat all that much, had conditions made to be suited for her in a lot of her last runs, and couldn't do anything overseas like some of those higher up

[Raw Instinct]

I can't argue with you mate she definitely didn't beat a great deal last season as has been evidenced since her retirement.

[BORDI]

Chuck your an idiot..

she didnt beat much? she SMASHED much.... Every race she was set for she won... towards the end she was if nto getting within a nose she was winning her warm up races, whether be 1400 or 2400

[Chuck]

and much of the above could be said about the horses above her in the rankings. And they didn't have the tracks tailored to the conditions they wanted to, or have a great run nearly every time. You said she SMASHED much - she won her first two melbourne cups and the cox plate by 1 length only - and tell me, who, really did she beat. Rare few that spring to mind are Elvstroem (who wasn't really a 2 mile horse anyway), and maybe Vinnie Roe, who became famous after winning the same race over and over (and its not the best race at that) plus he was at a huge weight disadvantage.

don't get me wrong, i am a huge fan of the diva, however she doesn't deserve a spot that high and in my opinion is lucky to be that high in the first place

[Raw Instinct]

Was there really any need for that Bordi seriously it is someones opinion against someone elses opinion and last time i checked everyone is allowed to have one of them.

You may feel the horse is the best you have seen maybe not but just because Chuck feels the horse beat a bunch of nags which I do tend to agree with doesn't mean he is an idiot, I for one have been enjoying reading this each day and really give credit to chuck for even giving it a go.

[Stix]

Was there really any need for that Bordi seriously it is someones opinion against someone elses opinion and last time i checked everyone is allowed to have one of them.

You may feel the horse is the best you have seen maybe not but just because Chuck feels the horse beat a bunch of nags which I do tend to agree with doesn't mean he is an idiot, I for one have been enjoying reading this each day and really give credit to chuck for even giving it a go.Chuck

Good to see some reaction from the gallery.

I'd have to back Chuck and say Makybe will in time perhaps be the MOST FAMOUS of the nags to be listed here, but not the BEST..... Keep it going mate, makes for interesting reading - even if I'm way to young to remember most of these ! (LOL :D )

[BORDI]

he is entitled to his opinion but to spin crap about tailored tracks and conditions is a load of bull****. i go bak to a very wet day at oaks day in 2005 where it ****ed down for much of the day yettttt the track was rated GOOD. now how can u tell me that on a 30 degree melbourne day a little bit of water at 6am is gunna cause a track worse then good? think about it boys. (mind you its racing policy). also think about where this mare sat in the field.. this explains y i say smashed them. to be 13 wide in a cox plate at MOONEY VALLEY, where the straight is of a few hundred metres and to still win by 2 lenghts is quite an achievment. especially when the placings and perhaps 4th 5th 6th all ran on from the inside, it was more then a mighty effort. many of u talk this mare down and it annoys the **** out of me. she was retired at her peak and i would say she could quite have easily made it 4 or 5 melbourne cups, and however many more coxplates, against whatever company..

[Stix]

Bordi

You sound like a disgruntled "silent" partner.....who didn't want to retire :D

She was good.... deserved to go out on top.

All the best

[Raw Instinct]

I'm not getting into the watered track crap again the evidence is there do what you want with it Bordi I am not trying to say that she was bad or anything I am saying the opposition is pathetic to say the least, she did well to achieve what she did but if you can't see that she beat some pretty average horses then you are kidding yourself.

[Tubby]

“Truth is one forever absolute, but opinion is truth filtered through the moods, the blood, the disposition of the spectator.”


You two will have to agree to disagree. I probably thought Makybe might be a little higher but that is MY opinion. I am really enjoying reading these though Chuck.

[Chuck]

14. MIGHT AND POWER: Excellent horse that came to fame with its 16-1 demolition of a good Caulfield Cup field in 1997, by 6 lengths. He completed the prestigious double when he went on to win the Melbourne Cup by the smallest of margins when Greg Hall thought he had won on Doreimus. Followed this up with wins in the Cox Plate, Caulfield Stks, Doomben Cup, Queen Elizabeth and the Mercedes Classic

[Chuck]

I have one horse in particular that I am waiting to see come up but I am thinking he will atleast be top 10.

yes he is in the top ten, around the 7 if i remember correctly. At least if the horse i think your referring to is the right one ;)

[Raw Instinct]

Well the one I think you could be talking about is one I am interested in but the one I was referring to is a fairly old horse widely considered somewhat underated around the country I mean I have never even seen the horse race I am just interested to see where you rate him cause my father has often said he was one of the best he ever saw.

[Chuck]

hmmm, well i was referring to one that i think you are quite keen on.

there are two horses in the list that raced in the very early 20th century and these are the oldest....then obviously phar lap a bit later...and you may have seen the rest i think

[Raw Instinct]

lol Mate I am only 29 for christs sake, the horse I am talking about ran around the mid 40's to 50's I believe he was actually finished racing before my father was even born I believe just he remebers seeing footage of the horse and hearing his father talk about him.

[Chuck]

13. NORTHERLY: Very tough West Australian horse that won 19 from 37. Main wins included 2 Cox Plates, 2 Australian Cups, 2 Underwood Stakes, a Caulfield Stakes and a Caulfield Cup

[Chuck]

12. SCHILACI: One of the great sprinters that ended with a career total of 16 wins from 36 starts. Won major sprint races the Lightning Stks (twice), the Oakleigh Plate, the Newmarket Hcp and the Galaxy; and also 2 Futurity stks and a George Ryder

[Chuck]

11. POSEIDON: Very good stayer that won the VRC and AJC Derbys, VRC and AJC St Legers, an Eclipse Stks, 2 Caulfield Cups and a Melbourne Cup

so, the top ten coming up....any predictions?

[rabbitz]

24. PETER PAN: Terrific stayer who won consecutive Melbourne Cups in 33-34. Also had an AJC Derby and Mackinnon Stakes to his name with a 60% winning record

32 and 34, hallmark won in 33 :)

[Chuck]

yes thats true...hall mark's time was 13 seconds faster than pp's 2nd win, but 4 seconds slower than his first :eek:

[Chuck]

Okay the Top 10...Chuck's immortals of the Australian Turf

10. BERNBOROUGH: A fantastic horse that won 26 races from 37 starts. Won Group 1's in the Futurity Stks, Newmarket Hcp, All Aged Stks, Doomben 10,000, Doomben Cup, Caulfield Stakes, Chipping Norton and the Chelmsford Stks

[Raw Instinct]

Well chuck that was the horse I was waiting to see where you put him.

[Chuck]

oh ok....i orginally had him at 9.....there has been a lot of reshuffling of this list in the past few days!

[Chuck]

Just recapping the list so far:

30. Amounis
29. Todman
28. Hareeba
27. Tobin Bronze
26. Vo Rogue
25. Rising Fast
24. Peter Pan
23. Carbine
22. Super Impose
21. Flight
20. Rubiton
19. Chatham
18. Lonhro
17. Octagonal
16. Galilee
15. Makybe Diva
14. Might and Power
13. Northlerly
12. Schillaci
11. Poseidon
10. Bernborough
9. - 1. ???????

[maverick1993]

impressive list Chuck...wonder where Gloaming will be..and Ajax ??and Vain ??
and my all time fav Kingston Town :)

[breadman]

THE KING WAS MY ALL TIME FAV BUT ALSO HAD A GREAT TIME WATCHING THE GREAT MANIKATO. REMEMBER WHEN I GOT 5/2 IN THE REID WHEN IT RACED A STAR 2 YEAR OLD CALLED RANCHER. THE MAN KICKED HIS BUTT!!! WHAT ANOTHER GREAT HORSE. CANT WAIT TO SEE WHERE THESE 2 END UP. GREAT READING TO CHUCK

[Chuck]

9. SUNLINE: This impressive mare (one of two in the top ten) had a notable record of 32 wins from 48 starts. Won the Doncaster twice, Cox Plate twice, Coolmore Stks twice, Feehan Stks twice, Manikato Stks and Memsie Stks. As well as this, Sunline was also successful overseas, wining the Hong Kong Mile

[Chuck]

8. AJAX: Ended career with a simply astounding 36 wins from 46 starts - a 78% winning record, and also known for being the shortest beaten favourite in Aussie racing history when going down at 40-1 on in an attempt of acheiving 17 wins in a row. Main wins included the Cox Plate, Newmarket, Sires Produce, Rosehill Guineas, Caulfield Guineas, 3 All Aged Stks, and 3 Futurity Stks

[Chuck]

7. MANIKATO: One of the greatest all time sprinters finished with the record of 29 wins from 47 starts. Group 1 wins include the Blue Diamond, Golden Slipper, Caulfield Guineas and George Ryder. As well as this, he won 4 Futurity Stakes, and 5 William Reid Stakes!! (this race has since aptly been renamed the Manikato Stks)

[Chuck]

6. DULCIFY: In my opionon a very underrated horse that only ran 21 times for 10 wins. Wins included the Australian Cup, Rosehill Guineas, AJC Derby, Craiglee Stks, Turnbull Stks, Mackinnon Stks and Victoria, and his best of all, a Cox Plate victory by 7 lengths

[Chuck]

5. WAKEFUL: My best mare of all time, she won races from 1000m - 4800m in a career record of 25 wins from 44 races. Won sprint double Oakleigh Plate and Newmarket Hcp in first year of racing, middle distance group ones the Doncaster, Caulfield Stks twice, Mackinnon Stks 3 times, All Aged Stks and 2 Eclipse Stks. Also won the Sydney Cup and ran 2nd in the Melbourne Cup carrying 63.5kgs and lost to a horse 3 stone lighter.

[Chuck]

4. TULLOCH: This sensational horse had a career record of 36 wins from 53 starts. His best wins included the Rosehill Guineas, AJC Derby, 2 Queen Elisabeth Stks, Caulfield Guineas, Caulfield Cup, VRC Derby, Mackinnon Stks and a Cox Plate

[Enjoying Insanity]

Well we have Kingston Town,Pharlap left anyone guess the other ??

Any guesses :D

[Sportz]

Tulloch not in the top 3??? :eek:

I assume the other one is Gunsynd?

Impressive list, Chuck. Don't really agree with your order, but it's been interesting.

[maverick1993]

Gloaming would be my guess :) incredible record.
has Vain been mentioned ?? Gunsynd ,Phar lap , Kingston Town ...one of these greats are missing out on a top 30 spot .

[Sportz]

Yeah, you've given yourself an impossible task here, Chuck.

Personally, I only really try to rate horses that have raced since I've been following the sport (late 70s) and so, for what it's worth, here is my top 30 list along with the rating that I've given them. Hope I haven't forgotten some.

01 - 64.0 KINGSTON TOWN
02 - 63.5 MAKYBE DIVA
03 - 63.5 MANIKATO
04 - 63.5 MIGHT AND POWER
05 - 63.0 BETTER LOOSEN UP
06 - 63.0 NORTHERLY
07 - 63.0 SUNLINE
08 - 62.5 DULCIFY
09 - 62.5 LET'S ELOPE
10 - 62.5 VO ROGUE

11 - 62.0 HAREEBA
12 - 62.0 LONHRO
13 - 62.0 OCTAGONAL
14 - 62.0 SAINTLY
15 - 62.0 SCHILLACI
16 - 62.0 SUPER IMPOSE
17 - 61.5 BEAU ZAM
18 - 61.5 BONECRUSHER
19 - 61.5 PLACID ARK
20 - 61.5 RED ANCHOR
21 - 61.5 RUBITON
22 - 61.5 STRAWBERRY ROAD
23 - 61.0 DORIEMUS
24 - 61.0 EMANCIPATION
25 - 61.0 FILANTE
26 - 61.0 JEUNE
27 - 61.0 LUSKIN STAR
28 - 61.0 NATURALISM
29 - 61.0 ROUGH HABIT
30 - 61.0 VEANDERCROSS

[Chuck]

well there h ave obviously been some hard luck stories. Those unlucky to miss out include Gunsynd, Gloaming, Shannon, Wenona Girl, Strawberry Road, Better Loosen Up, Bounding Away, Emanicpation, Red Anchor the list goes on forever. In hindsight i could have obviously put it together better, there are a lot i want to change now....but ANYWAY...

3. VAIN: My best sprinter of all time, this amazing horse had 14 starts for 12 wins and 2 seconds. Bolted in in the Sires Produce and Golden Slipper as a 2YO, and capped off that season with a 10 Length win in the Champagne Stks. As well as this, had wins in the Caulfield Guineas, won the Craven A Stks by 12 Lengths, the Lithgow Stks by 6 Lenths, and won the George Adams Hcp carrying 10 Lbs over weight for age.

[Sportz]

Hope I haven't forgotten some.

I did! Bounding Away and Shaftesbury Avenue would both be rated on 61kgs as well.

[Chuck]

2. PHAR LAP: This champion horse, probably the most well known horse in Australian Turf history had a career record of 37 wins from 51 starts. His best wins included the AJC and Victoria Derby, AJC and VRC St Legers, Futurity Stks, 2 Melbourne Stks, Chippin Norton, 2 Mackinnon Stks, 3 Craven Plates, 2 Cox Plates, a Melbourne Cup and the USA G1 the Agua Caliente Hcp

[Sportz]

Big call putting Kingston Town ahead of Phar Lap and Tulloch.

[breadman]

WELL I GREW UP WATCHING KINGSTON TOWN. NOW I KNOW TJ SMITH ALWAYS SAID THAT TULLOCH WAS A BETTER HORSE AND WHILE I NEVER SAW TULLOCH I CANT COMMENT ON THIS. I JUST THOUGHT MY OPINION IS THAT THE KING WAS SOMETHING SPECIAL AND CAME BACK FROM ADVERSITY TO WIN GROUP ONES INCLUDING THE COX PLATE 3 TIMES WHEN IN MY OPINION THAT THE 3 YEAR OLDS WERE BY FAR AN AWAY SOME OF THE BEST 3 YEAR OLDS I HAVE SEEN. LIKES OF GROSVENOR COSSACK PRINCE(WHO ACTUALLY HOLD A DECISION OVER THE KING) ETC.

MY OTHER OPINION IS THAT MANIKATO MAYBE SHOULD BE HIGHER ONLY ON THIS REASON. HOW MANY 2 YEAR OLDS HAVE YOU SEEN WIN THE BLUE DIAMOND OR THE GOLDEN SLIPPER FOR THAT MATTER BOTH WHICH THE MAN DID. AND THEN CONTINUE ON TO WIN GROUP ONE RACES YEAR AFTER YEAR LIKE THIS GREAT HORSE DID INCLUDING 4 WILLIAM REIDS. ESPECIALLY WHEN HE KICKED RANCHER FROM HERE TO %^$@ IN A DEVASTATING BURST OF SPEED AND STAMINA.

AS I SAID JUST MY OPINION THATS ALL.

THIS HAS BEEN VERY GOOD READING AND A JOB VERY WELL DONE. NO MATTER WHO DID THIS THERE WOULD BE DIFFERING OPINIONS. I PERSONALLY HAVE THOUGHT THAT CHUCK HAS DONE A STELLAR JOB WITH THIS AND I HAVE ENJOYED EVERYDAY OF THIS.

WELL DONE CHUCK ON A JOB THAT WAS VERY HARD TO DO!!!

[maverick1993]

yeah well done Chuck...
poor old Gloaming ..wins 57 from 67 with 9 2nds ...only defeat was when he got tangled in the ribbon they used to start the race and he still cant get into the top 30..guess he was racing to early and hard to rate the races he did win as they didnt have group races back then..

check this link out,,makes good reading...also check out the other champions listed on the site...very well done.

http://www.cyberhorse.net.au/barnes/gloaming/page1.htm

[Sportz]

No need to SHOUT, Breadman. :D

I agree that Kingston Town was an absolute champion, and he's the best horse I've seen since I've been following racing (just ahead of Makybe Diva, Manikato and Might and Power). However, most racing people do rate Phar Lap and Tulloch higher. I remember they had a big poll a few years back in Turf Monthly and I think they may have actually had Tulloch 1, Phar Lap 2, Kingston Town 3.

Agree with the others. Well done, Chuck. It's been very interesting reading. :)

[breadman]

CANT HELP IT MATE IM SHORT SIGHTED.

[BORDI]

I find it hard to believe and also quite interesting that you have horses 10-3 not winning a melbourne cup, yet you have a super mare that has won 3 (THREE) at 15.... hmmmm gotta wonder..

[ijuandaQLD]

i disagree bordi, i agree that makybe is a phenomenal horse and one of australia's greatest but in my opinion she didnt win enough and in regard to her 3 Melbourne Cups, what a feat yes but the melbolurne cup itself although australia's most famous and richest race i do not think it attracts the best horses. the melbourne cup is the type of race that belongs in Europe. Australia is a country that i believe has its best (most prestigious) races at 6 furlongs and 1 1/4 mile. the melbourne cup is on its own at 2 mile. other 2 milers ie brisbane, sydney, adelaide are mediocre by comparison. She will be regarded as one of the countries greatest, undoubtedly, but not the best

[Chuck]

thats true. I think the Melbourne Cup is very overrated. its a race to attract and be enjoyed by the public...those that don't normally bet...the melbourne cup is about everything except the horses and jockeys...its a great spectacle, but lacks class over the entire field.....an average stayers handicap

1. KINGSTON TOWN: My best horse of all time, had a career record of 41 starts with 30 wins (despite losing its first 5 starts in melbourne). Had many great wins - his best of which were is 3 Cox Plates in 80,81,82 (now there's an achievement Bordi). His last was marked with Bill Collins calling the famous words "Kingston Town can't win........he might win yet the champ..Kingston Town's swamping them...Kingston Town!!!". Apart from the 3 cox plates, Kington Town's other best wins included the Rosehill Guineas, AJC Derby, Sydney Cup, 2 Caulfield Stks, 2 George Mains, Caulfield Cup, Spring Champion Stks, 3 Warwick Stks, 3 Chelmsford Stakes, Mercedes Classic and the Queensland Derby

[BORDI]

AND that fact she did not lose one race in which she was trained for means nothing???? they targetted her for the melb cup because yes it is australias most prestigeous race and it is australasias most richest. im sure if they wanted to she could have one many many many cox plates as was evident in the one that just passed. the wieght for age conditions in a cox plate field will only benefit her as they can not lump 60kg on her...

[umrum]

AND that fact she did not lose one race in which she was trained for means nothing???? they targetted her for the melb cup because yes it is australias most prestigeous race and it is australasias most richest. im sure if they wanted to she could have one many many many cox plates as was evident in the one that just passed. the wieght for age conditions in a cox plate field will only benefit her as they can not lump 60kg on her...

she was a great mare no doubt. But the fact is she came to prominence when the very best retired. Also Elvestroem had a very good record against her and while he was a great horse he was no hall of famer. She wil be a hall of famer due to the weight of her achievements but just on pure ability I dont think she was up there with turf greats like Sunline and Northerly.

[umrum]

LOL

[Chuck]

Bordi you are in the serious minority here. you keep saying she won the few races she was trained for - and i say again, so did the 14 horses above her. she had a weaker strike rate than all of the horses above her (and yes some of them were stayers too)

[Sportz]

Can't see her feat being repeated any time soon. Melbourne Cups aren't just average staying handicaps won by slow plodders any more. Generally takes a pretty classy horse to win one these days. And it takes a BRILLIANT horse to win 3 straight!!!

[BORDI]

well said sportz....


minority u say? say wat u like.... the facts are on the table. she won more prize money then any other horse in australian history (grossed up to take into account inflation and race money also) she broke many many many records including record time in aus cup, 3 melb cups, cox- melb double in the one year, weight carrying records... and plenty more. The basic fact is this... she has done what no other in history has...........

[breadman]

Kingston Town would have picked her up and carried her over 2000m. Every professional that I know of rate the Cox Plate a far superior race to the Melbourne Cup.

Just my opinion.

[Raw Instinct]

Bordi I don't whether I need to ask the question but what is your top 10 horses you have done nothing but bag evryone elses opinion so how about putting it out there for everyone else to have a go at.

She was a great horse but she wasn't the best how could anyone say anything is better than anything else until the day they invent a time machine and can race all the best horses over time against eachother at peek fitness in the best of conditions the maybe someone can argue one is better than the other.

As far as the prize money thing goes well they have done Pharlaps career earnings using the figures from the year 2000 and he actually won more prize money than she did when it is done like that. Kingston Town would be right up there I imagine aswell with 3 Cox Plates at todays rates to go with all the other races he won.

This is all one persons opinion everyone has there own I personally think Starcraft was as good a miler as I have seen race and most people do not share that opinion, The problem was that most of Australia hated the horse probably firstly because he was a Queenslander and secondly because of the owner, However I do give him alot of credit he did things other owners wouldn't do and in my opinion when Starcraft went to the UK and won he did more for Australian racing than anyone before him he beat the poms at a distance they like to think they have very good horses at where as it has always been questioned that there sprinters are truly world class still Choisir's feats should never be knocked either.

[Chuck]

Exactly raw.

Bordi, the challenge is there. post your top 10 and see what everyone says

[Sportz]

As Raw said, it's damn hard to compare horses of different eras, and thumbs up to Chuck for having a go. For what it's worth, this would be my top 10:

01 - PHAR LAP
02 - TULLOCH
03 - KINGSTON TOWN
04 - BERNBOROUGH
05 - CARBINE
06 - MAKYBE DIVA
07 - MANIKATO
08 - MIGHT AND POWER
09 - PETER PAN
10 - RISING FAST

[Chuck]

raw - what about poor old Reset? 5 wins from 5 (including G1s Cadbury Guineas and Futurity Stks) before sold to stud....and it beat Starcraft twice ;)

[umrum]

This is mine for the record. As stated it's only one man's opinion so chill out Bordi ; )

1. Tulloch
2. Phar Lap
3. Northerly
4. Kingston Town
5. Sunline
6. Tobin Bronze
7. Bernborough
8. Rising Fast
9. Manikato
10. Might and Power

[system]

Retrospective” Group One winners List


This list is based on allocating respective Group One status in wins of races upgraded since 1978/9.

Rank Horse Group 1 Wins
1. Manikato 21 wins
2. Tulloch 19 wins
3. Ajax 17 wins
4. Wenona Girl 15 wins
5. KingstonTown 14 wins
5. Sky High 14 wins
7. Phar Lap 13 wins
7. Sunline 13 wins
9. Tie The Knot 13 wins
10. Rough Habit 12 wins
11. Amounis 11 wins
11. Bonecrusher 11 wins
11. Eurythnic 11 wins
11. Wakeful 11 wins
15. Octagonal 10 wins
15. Tobin Bronze 10 wins


List courtesy of Peter Tonkes and Bloodhorse Review.




“Overall” Group One winners List


This list is based on allocating Group One status to “missing Group One” events pre 1978/9. That is, taking the nation’s best races during that period which would have been Group One recognised had such a system been in place)

Rank Horse Group 1 Wins
1. Phar Lap 27 wins
1. Tulloch 27 wins
2. Carbine 25 wins
3. Ajax 24 wins
4. Manikato 21 wins
5. Gloaming 19 wins
5. High Caste 19 wins
5. Sky High 19 wins
8. Beau Vite 18 wins
8. Wakeful 18 wins
10. Amouinis 17 wins
10. Chester 17 wins
10. Eurythmic 17 wins
10. Hydrogen 17 wins
10. Limerick 17 wins
10. Trafalgar 17 wins

[Raw Instinct]

raw - what about poor old Reset? 5 wins from 5 (including G1s Cadbury Guineas and Futurity Stks) before sold to stud....and it beat Starcraft twice ;)


Lol
you have me there Chuck however Starcrafts results were far better away from this country then they were in the country atleast he hung around for awhile for us to watch the sheer fact that Reset had one prep and one only certainly has to put a bit of a knock on him.

[BORDI]

Raw,
i do not know what you are takling about.... maybe u should read papers and facts more. they did an article just b4 or after the melb cup comparing the prizemoney of the two up to date and makybe diva was around 500k in front after the cup... so get ur facts right.......

[Raw Instinct]

I have my facts right my friend I got the prizemoney figures out of the Race track magazine where they did a comparison between Makybe Diva and Pharlap the difference being they included his win of the Agua Caliente as the modern day version of the Breeders Cup race and that is what made him a higher money earner.

[Raw Instinct]

Well I managed to find the article and have typed it onto a spredsheet for anyone who wants to check it out anyway obviously there are races that do not exist anymore they were taken as there modern day equivalent.

[Top Rank]

I think one of the points concerning Makybe Diva was that she retired when she was at her absolutely dominant best and that if she had continued she would possibly have been one of the UNDOUBTABLE all time greatest but as it is I prefer Sunline as a racemare.


Before her first Melb. Cup win she was just a good handicapper. Between her 1st and 2nd cup she won only one race - the Sydney Cup, but in between her 2nd and 3rd cup she was untouchable.
It was only her last 12 months that had her in the stellar division of gallopers, maybe a little harsh, but if she had raced on, who knows.

Sunline was at the very top of the tree from her 3yr old year, won two Cox Plates and won overseas.

It really is a futile argument as is comparisons in any sport over differnet eras.

[Enjoying Insanity]

I you want to see how one paced Makybe Diva is, have a look at the Australian Cup 2004, when Lonhro got checked, with more weight and still accelerated away with more weight on him.

She was a one paced plodder, won all three Melbourne Cups the same way, and she didn't have a turn of foot.

And the last win of her's was sullied by the track watering fiasco.

[BORDI]

enjoying insanity... you really are a XXXXXXXXXX to make a comment lyk that. she demolished the australian cup course record, something lohnro didnt do..... yo XXXXXXXXXXX bout racing...

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