The Cox Plate (2040m)

[Chuck]

Of $3000000 and $50000 trophies. 1st $1800000 and trophies of $38000 to owner $3700 to trainer $4100 to jockey $4200 to strapper, 2nd $440000, 3rd $220000, 4th $130000, 5th $110000, 6th $100000, 7th $100000, 8th $100000.

For Three-Years-Old and Upwards. Standard Weight for Age. (GROUP 1).

No Allowances for apprentices. Field Limit: 14 + 4 EM

No Horse Trainer Jockey Barrier Weight

1 SIRMIONE Bart Cummings Damien Oliver 8 59
2 MALDIVIAN (NZ) Mark Kavanagh Michael Rodd 6 59
3 ZIPPING John Sadler Danny Nikolic 5 59
4 THESEO Gai Waterhouse Nash Rawiller 12 59
5 MASTER O'REILLY (NZ) Danny O'Brien Vlad Duric 11 59
6 RAHEEB Anthony Cummings 10 59
7 ALAMOSA (NZ) Mick Price Craig Newitt 7 57.5
8 C'EST LA GUERRE (NZ) John Sadler Steven Arnold 3 57.5
9 PRINCESS COUP Mark Walker Opie Bosson 9 57
10 GALLANT TESS David Payne Corey Brown 4 57
11 ZARITA (NZ) Pat Hyland Dwayne Dunn 1 55.5
12 SAMANTHA MISS Kris Lees Glen Boss 2 47.5

[Chuck]

Princess Coup / Zipping - take your pick :)


.

Interesting method of doing the barrier draw this year, horses were drawn in random order, and then the owners picked the barrier they wanted

[tevez17]

Princess Coup / Maldivian, be interesting to see if the odds have come in a little with Malds decent draw...

[Sportz]

Interesting method of doing the barrier draw this year, horses were drawn in random order, and then the owners picked the barrier they wanted

Yep. Think that's going to become a more regular thing in future.

When you think of it, with the other way of doing it, you have to be lucky twice. I mean, the horse drawn out first can end up with a barrier that the connections hate. With this way, you only have to be lucky once. They just draw out the number of the horse and then the rest is up to the owner / trainer.

By the way, who got drawn out first? Do you know?

[reded]

C'est La Guerre was drawn first from memory

[Horse Whisperer]

Zipping/Alamosa for a bit of value.

[Skytrain]

Zipping/Alamosa for a bit of value.
I'm having problems splitting those two.

Think they'll just grab Maldivian, depending on how much pressure Theseo puts on up front.

[Sportz]

If ever there was a year where the rank outsider of the field could get up, surely this'd be it.

[Chuck]

If ever there was a year where the rank outsider of the field could get up, surely this'd be it.

Samantha Miss? ;)

[Sportz]

Don't think she's the outsider of the field? ;)

[Chuck]

Don't think she's the outsider of the field? ;)


my mistake ;)

[Hammers]

This Saturday will feel like the Cox Plate in Phar Lap's day - the Moonee Valley Cup will be a better race.

[crash]

Don't think she's the outsider of the field? ;)

She should be as only one 3yr. old filly has ever won the Cox Plate, the mighty Surround in 76'. Unlike Surround, SM hasn't raced and won at WFA level, nor raced and won in open company before the Cox and is having her first run at the track. If she can win this she is something special straight out of the box. All things considered and all hype aside, she should be at 20/1 at least as she is no Surround ...yet.

[Chuck]

She should be as only one 3yr. old filly has ever won the Cox Plate, the mighty Surround in 76'. Unlike Surround, SM hasn't raced and won at WFA level, nor raced and won in open company before the Cox and is having her first run at the track. If she can win this she is something special straight out of the box. All things considered and all hype aside, she should be at 20/1 at least as she is no Surround ...yet.

very true.

we've seen them all before, Serenade Rose, Special Harmony, Miss Finland (especially). every year there seems to be a filly generating huge hype, but they just do not win the cox plate (as weak as this year's field is).

first start in melbourne, first start around mooney valley, first race longer than a mile, first go at WFA, first race against older horses, unlike the plodders she has being beating.

i was never a fan of miss finland, but if she couldnt win the cox with 47 kgs (having already run 2nd in the salinger and beaten Haradasun in the mcneil) then samantha miss has no chance

[Raw Instinct]

I gotta say if there is ever a 3yo filly that might pull this off then Samantha Miss might be it she is bred to see the trip out no worries, thing to remeber here is alot of the 3yos that have tried this have not been either bred to run this trip out or haven't been able to at any point.

she has drawn a great gate and for mine will be exceptionally hard to beat is she unders maybe but that has more to do with the opposition than anything else.

There are not many that can win this race in my mind Samantha Miss, Princess Coup are both musts after that i can give a small chance to Zipping, Sirmione and C'est La Guerre and thats about it for me.

[crash]

SM has proved nothing against open class or WFA so the odds should reflect this, but won't. Sirmione looks good but has a lousy record at the track.

[Raw Instinct]

Crash I amnot arguing what she has proven but she hasn't really proven she can't yet either, call me stupid but Savabeel hadn't proven a great deal of anything a couple of years ago and he won quite comprehensively against a far stronger field than she meets tomorrow.

Am I saying she is a moral now she is not but she is going to be extremely hard to beat, Princess Coup will be tough to beat for sure and certain she is a class horse but she will be giving the filly a start in the run whether she can do that at the valley with the weight difference time will tell. 2 months ago I would have been all over Sirmione in this race and may still have a little saver on him but I wouldn't be trusting him to fire tomorrow he may have been a victim of a slowly run race last start but C'est La Guerre run in the same race was 100 times better and he is the one i feel is going to start over the odds.

[crash]

SM might prove to be a little champ. But the odds for not having proven anything yet?

[Raw Instinct]

No the odds aren't reflective of what she has done i think the odds are reflective of what she might do and what the rest of the field has shown, would anyone else join me in saying this is by far the worst cox plate assembled in the last 10 years if not much much longer.

[crash]

Hard to disagree with the facts and logic:


'Whilst Samantha Miss has everyone excited, she hasn’t even proven she’s any good yet - away from the sanctity of her won age and/or own age and sex.

Why do I query where Samantha Miss sits in the general score of things? Well she lacks the only two things she ever needs to become something great in life - 1) acceleration and 2) an ability to run fast time overall.

Granted she hasn’t been given the opportunity “to run time overall” on many occasions, as she’s encountered “dead” tracks thrice, a “slow ” track once and “heavy” tracks on another two occasions.

I’d also declare that Samantha Miss has never beaten a decent horse. You might say she beat Sebring and that is true, but I can assure you he was no revelation as a racehorse. Samantha Miss had the advantage of racing in 2YO races grossly affected by Equine Influenza - when quality fellow 3YO gallopers like Victorian Whobegotyou and fellow New South Welshman Dreamscape hadn’t even debuted.

Media outlets keep fanning the Samantha Miss bushfire with talk of this “champion” filly, but if you take one step back and smell the roses, she has earned her reputation through defeating legless excuses of racehorses – the likes of Glowlamp. As at right this minute, that filly Glowlamp is such a revelation that she is still a Maiden after nine starts. Yet Glowlamp would seem to be a fair litmus test for Samantha Miss as she has been competitive with Samantha Miss the last five times they’ve met - (4th in the Sires Produce when Samantha Miss ran 2nd, 3rd to Samantha Miss in the Champagne Stakes, 2nd to Samantha Miss in the Silver Shadow, 5th to her in the Furious Stakes and 3rd to her in the Tea Rose Stakes).

Now if Samantha Miss is the “champion” filly that all these media urgers incessantly ramble on about, well there are only two analogies one can logically make –1) that Glowlamp must be pretty special too, because if one is a “champion” then the other one that can go with her must be at least “special”, - yet hang on – remember what I just said “Glowlamp is still a Maiden after nine starts”. The second analogy is that the possibility exists that both Samantha Miss and Glowlamp are only ordinary.

Love And Kisses has proven she can also be competitive with Samantha Miss. Now whilst competing in the sanctity of racing her own age group, she ran 2nd to Samantha Miss in the Sires Produce, 3rd to Samantha Miss and Glowlamp in the Silver Shadow and 2nd to Samantha Miss in the Furious Stakes. By the law of logic, that would all tend to suggest that there is also not a lot separating Samantha Miss and Love And Kisses ability wise - yet Love And Kisses got run over by the males last Saturday at Randwick after having every possible chance.'

Purser, 2.10.08

[Stix]

They have to start (to prove themselves) somewhere and if she performs in the Cox Plate, well and good, but I won't be backing her at the odds on offer. Although I do see a certain betting agency advertising $10 about SM (I'm sure certain conditions apply)

I don't mind Sirmione @ odds, doesn't win until wound up and might be close now

[Chuck]

call me stupid but Savabeel hadn't proven a great deal of anything a couple of years ago and he won quite comprehensively against a far stronger field than she meets tomorrow.

savabeel was not a filly. they just don't win the race. as weak as the field is on saturday, maldivian and theseo won't be going slow, and princess coup, zipping and co will be going hard from the 550, and samantha miss just won't take the pressure

[Raw Instinct]

I don't know that i ever called her a champion never will to be honest she isn't a fav horse of mine or anything to be honest, She in my opinion has beaten nothing at all but has also done it with complete ease in slowly run races in which she was coming from the tail in. She is a good horse that has beaten up on her own kind, would she have beaten Whobegotyou I don't know but he isn't racing tomorrow in this race so that is of very little consequence whether I even think she is better than him.

lets go over the field a bit here though

1. Sirmione: He started the prep off well with a couple of nice runs but his last 2 runs have been a bit disappointing, he was pushed up wide very early 2 starts ago which I agree doesn't suit him but he didn't finish off at all either, last start he was ordinary maybe the slow pace was against him I really don't know but he raced pretty flat on that day. He has turned his form around remarkably before and there is no doubt his trainer can work miracles he does come in with a gear change which may help, I feel flemington is his track but if there was enough pressure on in the race and he reproduced some of the form which saw him win a McKinnon and Australia Cup then he could win this right now that is a real if though. He was once my pick and I might have a little on him on the weekend but he would have to be considered a rough chance only.

2. Maldivian: Returned with some cracking runs but he has really gone off the boil and I don't think the Caulfield Cup run last week will do him any favors at all either, he hasn't been finishing his races off when in position to win of late you can't win a cox plate this way I cannot have him at all.

3. Zipping: Geez I have had everyone trying to tip me this horse and whilst it wouldn't shock me if he won how the aaaa could you back him with any confidence at all, he goes back to last flies home to finish in the placings and have the siren on his head to say back me next start well he has been carrying that siren for 2 years now i think who was the last cox plate winner to be without a win that long between drinks. I wouldn't be surprised if he won by any means but he would have to be as much as risk as any of the top chances if not more of a risk.

4. Theseo: If this wins I reckon i'll give up punting he has no hope IMO he has been going alright in some weak sydney WFA races and won the epsom which also looked a pretty weak field he'll be close to the lead if not in it when they turn from home it won't last for long after that. No hope at all might finish around mid field because he can sit on the pace.

5. Master O'Reilly: They would have to be running along at amazingly fast sectionals for this guy to be in the finish he didn't have the dash to catch them in the Caulfield Cup last week what chance does he have at the shorter trip this week. he could run a place in this as a rough chance but I would be shocked if he was able to win it he has quality but at a longer trip than this.

6. Raheeb: It is a joke this horse is in the field IMO hasn't won at group 1 level which I thought always used to atleast be a starting point, he couldn't win a weak epsom and certainly doesn't look like he is screaming out for the extra trip, I wish the horse, jockey and connections the best but on form he really has no hope at all.

7. Alamosa: he is a good solid handicapper which his last win showed and it is probably safe to assume he loves the mile, he should get a nice run in this race I have doubts about his ability to finish this race off and be a winning chance, he wouldn't shock me totally if he placed but he would have to be pretty good odds to entertain having an e/w punt on him.

8. C'est La Guerre: Here is the horse I feel might start over the odds for his ability, he is a quality galloper whose form through the NZ derby has been nothing but franked nearly everytime one of the horses through it steps out, no later than last week when Nom Du Jeu ran a cracker 2nd in the Caulfield Cup. He has only really had one bad run which was in the JRA cup where he was pushed wide a fair way out on a night when there was a dynamite leader bias, his last start in the Yalumba was sensational they ran i believe the last 1000m in that race at around 55 sec if that is the case what time did this guy get home in from last. I amnot sure whether they may try to hold a bit more forward position from the good gate off memory he was up near the pace when he won the NZ Derby but he is one of the few who has the quality to take this race out IMO good e/w chance in the race at stupid odds.

9. Princess Coup: She is in sensational form and the NZ form is strong this is as far as she wants to go and is her best distance they tried her at the 2400 last year for a 3rd in the Caulfield Cup but she really doesn't finish it off at that trip. She is a quality mare in the best form of her career and the horse to beat here, my only concern here is how far back will she get and the ability to get a clear run when needed and there are plenty of slow horses here that could get in her way. As I said she is the horse to beat and if you can get $4 around the place before the race she would be worth having a go at not sure that will be around though.

10. Gallant Tess: Always had a bit of time for the horse but she shouldn't be here would have to be a massive doubt to run the trip out on exposed form good luck once again to all involved but she has no hope at all.

11. Zarita: Always had a hard time rating this horse and although she has run ok this spring in a couple of races she has never once looked like winning any of them and I doubt this is changed in this race lacks the quality to win the race and would only give her a very rough place chance.

12. Samantha Miss: the form around her is questionable for sure but the barrier will see her closer than normal i feel especially with the weight relief, is she good enough to win this race only time will tell but i would rather have something on her at the double figures I already have ($17) than against her, she gets a jockey who always seems to be able to pluck something out of his behind in these big races I will say she can win certainly a place chance in an extremely weak race.

my tips right now
1. Samantha Miss (I just feel she might get to much of a jump on Princess Coup)
2. Princess Coup
3. C'est La Guerre
4. Sirmione
5. Zipping

[Raw Instinct]

They have to start (to prove themselves) somewhere and if she performs in the Cox Plate, well and good, but I won't be backing her at the odds on offer. Although I do see a certain betting agency advertising $10 about SM (I'm sure certain conditions apply)

I don't mind Sirmione @ odds, doesn't win until wound up and might be close now


Only condition is that it is a max $50 bet that i know of

[Raw Instinct]

savabeel was not a filly. they just don't win the race. as weak as the field is on saturday, maldivian and theseo won't be going slow, and princess coup, zipping and co will be going hard from the 550, and samantha miss just won't take the pressure


I am aware of that Chuck but how many 3yo colts or geldings had won the race before he won off memory there record isn't outstanding either

[Chuck]

15 colts and geldings. no, their record wasnt great, but still about 1 in 5

Significantly more than the 1 filly, which in the 80 year history of the race is simply an outlier.

[Raw Instinct]

Chuck out of interest do you have any idea how many fillys have attempted it at all

I amnot trying to be smart or anything here either I wouldn't have thought there would have been many I can only remember seeing Miss Finland myself but I haven't been following racing that closely for that long

[Raw Instinct]

Apparently the last 2 fillies to have run in the race were Miss Finland and Slight Chance and I believe they said there have only been 11 contest the race not sure if that is correct seems a low number much lower than i expected.

The last 2 fillies to have run in the race have both run very good runs if that is the case.

[Hammers]

Crash said earlier that Surround had proved herself in open company prior to her Cox Plate win.

Wrong.

9 starts as a 2YO for 5 wins
4 starts as a 3YO prior to the CP for 4 wins in a Fillies Hcp, Ascot Vale Stks, Moonee Valley Stks and Caulfield Guineas - all 3YO events.

After her win in the Cox Plate, Surround raced 8 times in open company for 2 wins. In the Cox Plate she beat Unaware and Better Draw - not exactly hall of famers.

I think the Surround euphoria is a little unwarranted and the post Cox Plate form outlined above gives some weight to this.

Not many 3YO fillies try for this race so the once in 80 years although true is a tad misleading.

Lisa Cropp slaughtered Miss Finland two years ago. Slight Chance ran third after protest in one of the hottest fields to face the starter in any race over the past twenty years.

This is the weakest Cox Plate since Rising Prince won in 1985 ( Drawn was favourite ). I think only Sirmione and Maldivian have won at Group One WFA in Australia and they are out of form.

I agree that Samantha Miss may be a little over rated but to be favourite for this race doesn't bestow any form of greatness on her. I'd say Sunline would be 4/9 if she was in this race at her peak, Northerly about the same. Might And Power about 1/3, Kingston Town - quinella betting only.

Ian McEwen's fear that ordinary horse may one day win this race could come true. Hard to believe that as little as 20 years ago a Caulfield Cup winner ( Cole Diesel ) couldn't get a guernsey and now it seems anything with a sprinkling of WFA form gets the green light.

[Raw Instinct]

Hammers you pretty much went to where I was trying to go in asking how many have even tried as a 3yo filly and I have a feeling they said eleven in the preview show and if that is the case the 1 out of 11 isn't to bad really.

It will be an interesting race if nothing else.

[crash]

Chuck out of interest do you have any idea how many fillys have attempted it at all


Since Surround won in 1976, 12 fillies have contested the Cox Plate.

Most of the fillies since Surround have been sent out at big prices and given little hope.

Of those in the market, Tristanagh ($5.50) ran 7th and Courtz 10th ($9) in 1989; while Society Bay ran 11th after being sent out a 10/1 chance in 1986.

Miss Finland was a $10 hope(6th in 2006).

All of the other fillies to contest the race in that time have been at 20/1 or greater.

On the Sires side of things for SM, Australia's top sire Redoute's Choice has never produced a G1 winner, [male or female] in an open to all-comers WFA event.

Considering the history for fillies in the Cox, I'd want better than 10/1 for SM.

[Raw Instinct]

Crash as I said I already have her at $17 so I guess I have the odds most wanted to see for her I amnot saying she is over the line or anything I'd rather be on her at the $17 I have her at then anything else in the race right now, will I have another e/w bet tomorrow probably will on C'est La Guerre who as I stated is massive odds.

[Chuck]

Crash as I said I already have her at $17 so I guess I have the odds most wanted to see for her I amnot saying she is over the line or anything I'd rather be on her at the $17 I have her at then anything else in the race right now, will I have another e/w bet tomorrow probably will on C'est La Guerre who as I stated is massive odds.

i thought in a previous post she was your top pick?

[Raw Instinct]

yes she is my top pick but I wouldn't say I have any confidence in the race, I am happy to be on her and think she has more chance of winning this than I gave Miss Finland of winning her year. I think she is a better horse than Miss Finland mainly because I think she will be stronger over this trip.

I wouldn't want to back either of the 2 favs at the odds they are now to short for me hence the reason I will have something each way on C'est La Guerre tomorrow. Do I think Samantha Miss can win yes would I have backed her tomorrow at the odds she is now no regardless of whether I thought she could win or not.

[Chuck]

I know everyone is bagging the quality of the field this year, but imagine if injuries hadn't plagued the plate field this year. we'd be seeing a field like this:

Weekend Hussler
El Segundo
Pompeii Ruler
Tuesday Joy
Light Fantastic
Master OReilly
Alamosa
Sirmione
Zipping
Maldivian
Princess Coup
Samantha Miss

now THAT would be quality

[TESTAROSSA]

Hello all, Seems this is the best Cox Plate value wise in a long time!

Personally i can't see either favs winning, Samantha Myth has beat nothing in Sydney, she has never been put under pressure in any race, she has been getting back in slow paced races on wet tracks coming down the middle of the straight when in most cases the fence has been a no go zone. When the pressure is put on at the 800-600m mark i think she might be struggling. Massive unders at $3.80.

Now with Princess Coup we know she will get back which will probably suit with the way the race will probably be run but i doubt she has the early accelaration needed to put herself into the picture turning for home, she can reel of a nice last 100-200m sprint no worries but you need to be within striking distance turning for home and there are others back there with her who have more stamina and early accelaration. She has won once in 8 starts in Australia always running on into 2nd and 3rd and having that red siren that Raw Instinct says about Zipping. Unders at $4.00.

Now if Princess Coup is $4.00 how is Zipping $7.00? Zipping 3rd up into Cox Plate which connections have obviously targeted as the race to set him for, almost identical to Princess Coup but think might just have a bit more stamina and early accelaration to beat her home. $7.00 seems a touch overs.

Alamosa will get a perfect run from a great barrier, Should be sitting midfield with cover a great spot to win a Cox Plate from, however only been over the trip once finishing 5th behind Sir Slick in a strong race in NZ. Is a strong miler and finished of Toorak win strongly suggesting he will see the trip out. A top chance. Big overs at $12.00.

Big Mal's been schooled over the jumps in preparation for this and with blinkers added first time might sharpen him up for this. Whatever he does will kill Theseo in the process. Should bowl along and loves the Valley might be hard to run down if he can see off Theseo before turn. Overs at $12.

Don't be fooled by Cest La Guerre's early speed he has shown over here, has sat just behind speed in a few races in NZ last prep and from an inside gate has the chance to get in a lovely spot. Sectionals behind Duoro Valley were outstanding. Massive overs at $26.00.

Zarita is in the same boat as Cest La Guerre, could get a nice run close to speed, Cest La Guerre probably has a bit more brilliance though, although $26.00 is shopping nicely for her as well.

From the others Master O'Reilly is the only one i wouldn't be shocked if won.

Top 5:

Alamosa
Cest La Guerre
Maldivian
Zipping
Princess Coup.

[Luckyboy]

G'day Folks,

Really interesting thread this one and I thought I would add my two bob's worth in relation to Samantha Miss.

Having been in a fortunate position to get up close to this filly from her two year old days to now, I can tell you that you do not have to worry about her being out-muscled in this race. She is one vicious biatche!

The key to her success in this race will be the pace of the race, she cannot win if the pressure goes on at the 1400, she is just a bit too brilliant (al la Lohnro) to go much more than 250-350m at real warp speed.

Now the horses I would normally expect to start this pressure would be Theseo and Maldivian. But given Maldivian's recent performances, I reckon Rodd will be told to hold him up until the last third of the final turn (300m out). If that happens this will be a slower than normal Cox Plate and Samantha Miss should put this lot to the sword in the straight.


Cheers,
Luckyboy

[crash]

Testa's had plenty of rest lately so he seems to be nice and clear eyed about this one. Regardless of the shallow depth of talent in this race, it's still the toughest race in Australia. What needs to be looked at in this race is the field taking off for home at the 700m [not the usual 400m.] with the last 150m uphill to the post! So any considerations should start at which horses are tough enough and 3yr. old fillies are not unless they have proven something beforehand. I'll disagree with Testa here by ruling out Zipping for a win as he's become a professional place getter and money vacuum cleaner! Master O'Reilly will probably be conceding too much ground. Mal. will be the one to run down back on a track he loves and the blinkers should help too. Alamosa gets the perfect run though and should have the petrol in the tank at the 700m.

Trying to pin the tail on the Donkey, my selections are: Alamosa, Maldevian, Zipping, Princess Coup and Zarita.

Stand-out place bet: Zipping!

[Neiltown]

Master O'Reilly

A bet at good odds , likes the distance and has won at Moonee Valley before.

[dc]

1. Princess Coup
2. Zipping
3. Theseo
4. Maldivian/ Master O Reilly

Im leaving out Samantha Miss especially at those crazy odds. Shes had a lot of racing too and come down here step it up here at the valley in the PLATE with a distance shes never run...its a too much of a Big ask..

[Raw Instinct]

Didn't work out well for me but your kidding me that horse has been freaking awful he was so far under the odds it was funny. Samantha Miss run a credible race didn't settle real well but so much for the so called pressure there was nothing at all in that race.

Am I aaaaed with the result ofcourse I am anyone would be who wasn't on it Boss probably erred when he let Zipping go around he that went that damn slow it was ridiculos.

Well done to anyone who snagged it your better man than I

[crash]

Wow, a great run by Sam. I got the winner in the comp. and just missed the first 4 by not putting in Sam here!

[maverick1993]

Great run by an exciting filly,,she was always unders but she stuck it up alot of good judges by even running in the first half of the field.

I though Zipping did well and a great ride by Dan,,in hindsight i wonder if he kept on going when he improved if he would have caught him ??

[Stix]

As I said on another thread, MV is a very particular course and to dismiss the big Mal's record has bit me (and many others) on the bum...... Zipping to me seemed to tread water on the corner, the fixed $3.75 the place helped dull the paid a tad. :o

[Spartacus]

Hate to crow and i know my tips ain't here on any thread but Punting Patto and i had a day out

I backed five winners and snagged the tri in the plate (spewing about the first 4 as it was very gettable with big mal one out) - missed the quaddy by a head

Hate to say it but it really is horses for courses and the inactivity of jocks some days is unbelievable... i said to the strife that they better not let big mal get a cheap run 'cos he'll give 'em aaaa

[tevez17]

Princess Coup / Maldivian, be interesting to see if the odds have come in a little with Malds decent draw...




Was having a shocker really till this, got on at 21's during the week as soon as i knew it was defo backing up, then had completely forgotton that i'd run it into Dark Target over in WA aswell very nice surprise!