Sports Betting as a job

[discipline pays]

As a regular contributor to the site I was interested in any information from anyone out there who sports bets for a living.

What size bank do you use ?

What sports do you bet on?

What types of bets ? ( h2h, line betting, margin )

what type of profits do you aim for ?

any feedback would be fantastic .

[thefan]

I wouldnt say I do sports punting for a living,but I do
- keep good book keeping records of all wins and lossess
- look at every dollar won as every dollar hard earned
- I dont back
tennis( too risky-player could default), soccer,baseball,golf.

Sports i tend to stick to are league,afl,union and basketball.

I usually back the handicap markets..I dont make any bets unless ive done the research.

I usually get my tips and past results from a variety of sources.

Never ever back half-full double,points over under,or margin betting.

I tend to stick to stick to bets that are 50/50 wins. like Head 2 head or handicap.

I prefer alot of small wins over a span of time than huge wins and losses by taking risks.

I would only go all in if I am so certain of a win and if it is value. stupid but i do sometimes. I usually do this if a team is favourite to win and is in goodform and the underdogs have a last minute injury to key players.

Id be happy if i won $25 for the day. Since i watch alot of sports,alittle bit of punting makes it fun to watch and interesting.

I look at every bet as a losing bet.Once you placed the bet you lost the money.

[saratoga samchaz]

Hey there Discipline, this thread is right up my alley. I was a bookmaker here in the states since 1989 and worked as a sheet writer before that for a few years during college. Obviously, I was on the other side but I can probably offer some advice. In the US, bookmaking(on sports) is illegal except in Nevada. It is widely accepted and disregarded as not very serious, unless the cops got it out for ya or you unluckily/unkknowingly get caught up in something and get drug into it. This happened to a partner of mine. Anyway, it takes steely nerve and focus to be a succesfull and professional sports bettor, but it can be done. I know a guy who is regarded as the best sports (college football mostly) bettor around. The guy does not lose. here's the rub on him and guys like him. They are known as wise guys. They shop as many books as possible for weak lines and take advantage early in the week, buying it back if they have to later in the week. All kinds of neat tricks these guys have. Did you see the movie "Casino" with DeNiro and Joe Pesci? I'm sure you did. Remember DeNiro's character and what he was in the beginning and the end of the movie? He was a sports handicapper for the mob and he was good at it. What they do is spread their money on games they like all around the country after consulting with their own DeNiro's. First, they call all the offshore books and get the lines, under special arrangement these books hold these lines for a while. Then they get the word out to all their associates throughout the US on who is the play and what the acceptable point spread to take. Now, in return for these Golden Plays, each associate is asked to get the guy above him down for a certain amount, say $5K on the eagles -6(no higher). Associate now calls his local book (Me) to get line for the eagles. i look at my cmputer to check if there are any changes and say, eagles minus 6. Associate says"6 dimes($6k) on the eagles minus 6". I accept. 2 minutes later, after this same process has occurred throughout the whole country, the lines on the off shore books(and probably aussie too) for the eagles starts to go crazy. the eagles go up to 7,8,9.... The book has taken the worst of it, the wise guys have the eagles -6 when it should be 9 and this is why they win--Soft lines and cooperation from the off shore books to hold the lines long enough for the wise guys to get down on soft lines all around the country before the off shore have to cxhange the line so they don't get hammered by these same soft lines they have helped create, but without the knwledge of who the wise guy plays are, you don't know which lines are soft.

I was lucky enough to not get beat by these guys too long because JI could get them down as an associate and tack a little on to each one of their plays.

This can benefit you as a player by subscribing to a line service that has real time odds. I don't know how Aussie sports betting works, but the NFL here is huge gambling market and there are all kinds of line services. i don't know if it's ok to post them here but if it is, i'll do it or e-mail ya or pm ya. Watch the lines moving like crazy on saturday;s around 1:45 am sun morn your time, 15 minutes before kick off at 12 noon here and start playing these games (mostly totals on big ten and ACC games at this time) You won't believe it until you see it. The whole thing is still based on hcping, but remember DeNiro. If you have an AUSSIE site to bet at, they might not change their lines accordingly. I'm talking 6 or 7 point moves sometimes on college totals. A nice edge, no? Heck, you can even bet middles if you want.

This is my first year since 1989 not taking football. It is a bittersweet feeling but I'm glad that part of my life is over. The game (sports betting) has changed too much and now almost favors the player instead of the bookie. I saw this gradual change coming about mid 1990's. Last year was the worst season the bookies ever had and I had to stop the bleeding, but I had already decided it was going to be my last year anyway as my daughter is now almost 3 and it would not be fair to spend every fall weekend tied to a phone and constantly working. IT IS THE HARDEST JOB I"VE EVER HAD. very time consuming and the phone is always ringing. Even when you are not manning the phone , you are out collecting and paying customers. The money made it worth it. I still always had a job and used the book as my second job(noticed I didn't say part time job.) I learned a lot of do's and dont's from taking all types of sports punters and I'm sure I can help somehow.

[saratoga samchaz]

Another nice angle is first and second half betting on football. If you have a strong opinion on say a total in a game and the total is 42 you bet your side (we'll say under/42 points for $100). If you made a good play and the score is 7-3 at half, you have a choice to make. You can call the bookie and ask for the second half total (it's 24 say). if you bet over/24 in the second half, you have gotten yourself a nice 8 point middle for the total to end up between 34 and 42. It is an insurance bet with a huge chance of cashing both ways. I would usually bet less in the second half like this because I would get mad if I gave all my money back on a well thought out play in the first place. I did really well with this for a couple of seasons and have a book explaining it but I never have read it all the way through. Keep diligent records in an organized and legible manner. I have so many old racing forms around that I never know where look for stuff that I need, and this has cost me winners. Horses to watch that I've forgotten to write down for example. Use as many credible bookies as possible, and don't get lazy. Check all of them for line variations because that half point you think won't matter will end up making or breaking you in the long run. It's part of your advantage. Other people are lazy and don't research their games, if you do, you are half way home.


If you decide to start following the NFL, check out "winning points." It is a handicapping newsletter that breaks down each game in a very informed manner. you don't have to play their picks,although their best bets aren't bad, just read the info and stats they give. Even if you don't know anything about the NFL or college(especially)_I believe you can go in cold and still apply the wise guy method and half time betting system and do great. Or maybe you can apply some of these to the Aussie game. Good Luck

[thefan]

im gonna totally agree with you there on the shopping around with bookies for the handicap markets. Needless to say i havent learnt my lesson. I lost when the bulldogs couldnt beat the handicap market last years GF and just last week when i needed that 1 point which i could of gotten with another book maker in the knights dragons game.. Cost me.

[saratoga samchaz]

Why didn't you take the point with the one book? Not busting your chops fan, just kinda of taking a poll. I've done it myself enough to understand that frustration when you realize it's going to come into play. And I don't even know what league your talking about. Is it Aussie Rules Football?

[thefan]

nrl.. dragons scored a late try and they had to kick the conversion..

well currently i have four book makers i use. On one of them i tend to have a losing streak going on there so i havent used that account in a while. tab sports bet on the other hand pays only 1.85 when i can get better value ranging from 1.90 to 2.00

Can i ask anyone who reads or posts in this forum. Do you ever withdraw winnings or have you ever withdraw winnings. I believe this is the first step in successful punting.

[mad]

I always, repeat, always take the points over the divvie - always.

I too have felt the anguish of a narrow loss whilst chasing an extra 5 cents from a dividend. Didn't take me long to learn i tell ya!

Saratoga - i take it you be a big NFL fan? Hope so, any chance you would post some thoughts on each round during the season? I would love to follow NFL, of all the american sports, a little more closely. No presseure though!

[thefan]

heres one of my biggest tips for sports punting as a job. Do take into account youve done the research youself rather than taking tips off people on forums and making a bet. I believe its your money,and you only have yourself to blame if the tips go wrong

[maverick1993]

Can i ask anyone who reads or posts in this forum. Do you ever withdraw winnings or have you ever withdraw winnings. I believe this is the first step in successful punting.

Always withdraw winnings...keep your bank at a set amount..and dont be tempted to add to the bank during a rough trot,,,i find that when my bank starts dwindling i'm more selective and succesfully get back to the original amount..
After each 1/4 i then add a percentage (25%) of winnings to the bank,,
My goal is to have a bank of $100,000 using this method by the end of the next finiancial year..,,i'll then try being a fulltimer ..
hopefully with the extra time i'll have i'll look into sports betting more seriously as i can see mainly by this forum that it can be profitable..

this system has worked for me for the last 19 months or so ,,,i've never needed to top up my bank ..even after losing 30% during a hard time..

i also spend most of the winnings i've withdrawn..to alleviate temptation..
pay off the house , any loans or credit cards ..or put it aside for a trip to the World Cup cricket tournament in the West Indies in the near future,,

[Betsy]

I've always thought about betting on a larger scale than I am at the moment. At 17 I can't really whip together a large amount of cash, but I hope to in the future. I don't want to do it full time as with tennis betting you only really need around a cpl of hours to do the form. Whilst working fulltime (trying to get into pharmacy) I would love to dedicate a reasonable portion of funds to tennis betting.

Would a ROI of 20% (current ROI for ATP betting: see ATP Tennis Thread) be sufficient in order to make a decent amount of cash from punting on the side? Im not really into any staking plans, would I have to look into this in greater detail if I were to dedicate more funds to tennis betting? I reckon making some scratch from doing what you love is the way to go and I'd love to be able to do it later on down the track when Ive settled down.

At the moment, Im just betting with pretty small amounts whilst trying to sharpen my skills. Any advice on anything to do with tennis betting and large stakes would be great, whether its personal experiences or just staking information

Cheers
Betsy

[rabbitz]

i started betting recently starting with a set bank and going 5 or 10% as a stake,i'm going with afl,nrl,ukrl,baseball.am hesitant with tennis or soccer
am generally doing ok.well put it this way i've increased the bank 600% in a month but have had 138 bets and if i put it on a graph it would look like an ecg but its fun and my original bank was small but it gives me an interest in whatever game im watching.i havent taken any real big dividends but am going the small dividend(sure thing type bet)
Cheers

[saratoga samchaz]

Hey there Mad, In a way I'm a huge NFL fan, but then again I'm kinda jaded after years of working the "right" side. I'll offer this advice immediately. Betting on the NFL has become much easier for the player than the bookmaker. I watched the game change before my eyes. I mean I lived it, for real. The glory days of booking in the 80's are gone. It is now a punter's game(no the position, no pun intended). The lines in the NFL are soft as compared to BI (before internet). For example, how would I know anything about Aussie horse racing if it wasn't for the computer? INFORMATION previously available to only the ones in the know is now available to all. And to give the player a further edge, he has the luxury of studying the games when he wants as diligintley as he wants. Not the bookie. He's too busy, working to grab a 10% advantage, to monitor every line move, injury, and weather pattern. The book relies on the computer to update his odds before he gets burnt with bad lines and it's a tough job. In the 80's, I would have a line service guy call me from Vegas anytime some weird move happened. Now you will see these lines move crazily when before the player had no clue what the line should be.

I'm not taking anything this year, but I might play some games. I will still be following it though and I gave alot of my customers to my friend so I can monitor how the action goes. I could write a book (again, no pun intended) on the stuff, so if you have any questions, feel more than free to ask.

PS: 2004-2005 NFL was the worst season for Bookies ever. It was atrocious and here is why. It may even get worse for the books. There are 6 above average teams and 24 very bad ones. Vegas can't make the lines high enough. I can't believe I got demolished by square players giving the points, but it happened. These teams are 1) Philadelphia Eagles- They may be considered chokes when it comes to winning the Super Bowl but they cover week in and week out for last few years. 2) Indianapolis Colts-- Not only do they cover, they also go over the total every week and that's what ninny bettors play regiously (favorite to the over in a parlay---Pays 3-1 odds).
3)New England Patriots-- Super Bowl champs a couple times over are now America's team 4)Pittsburgh Steelers--- They may have overachieved last year with a rookie QB but they are still very talented.

Looking over the NFL, I don't really see any other great teams. Sure some, teams may surprise but as a whole you should be able to play these teams as favorites and turn a nice buck.

Be mindful of KEY injuries at all positions, not just the glamour positons like Quaterback, running back and wide receiver. American football is won by a simple plan. The better your offensive line is, the more you will score and the better your defensive line, the less they will score. I couldn't tell you the name of ONE offensive lineman right off the top of my head, but it's a cohesive unit that accounts for pushing their team up the field. Obviosly, the above mentioned teams have great lines. I would never in a million years believe I'm telling somebody that the way to win in the NFL is by betting favorite, but I am. The rub on this is don't bet ALOT of favs, just the superior teams. PSS The lines this week look fishy (week #1) Eagles-1 1/2 over ATLANTA FALCONS NE PAT"S-7 1/2 over oakland raiders Colts -3 over BALTIMORE RAVENS and STEELER's -7 over tennessee titans
Home teams in caps Eagles line looks low but they are at ATL and there has been dissensin out the wazoo during the past month and a half of training camp. Shouldn't matter though. They want to win it all and have lots of talent. I don't know what the New Orleans Saints are gonna do this year but, in all honesty, they've got a lot on their minds and the games won't mean much to them. They are +7 at Carolina this week

[saratoga samchaz]

YO FAN, Great move to have as many books as possible. Shop! I can understand not betting with the black cat book. LOL

[thefan]

Betsy is 17? Im 21. One of my biggest lessons in life was to lose. Dealing with loss and temptation itself. It took me 3 years to discipline myself,because I knew that if i wanted to be ahead i had too. I remember the days when I would back all my winnings into another bet and this routine went on with loss after loss. Today,its a different story. I needed motivation to keep me from gambling all the money away.This was to gather money into a seperate savings account for a deposit on a home. Ive kept my bank at the same amount and withdraw once the bank goes over $150. I believe all wins doesnt matter how small is still better than nothing. Good luck to everyone,because if you do suceed your only a minority of the population.

[Mr J]

"nd just last week when i needed that 1 point which i could of gotten with another book maker in the knights dragons game."

Thefan, whether that point is worth much depends on the line you take, whether it's a key number and if it's an odd number. Nearly all odd numbers are worthless in NRL. Eg, it doesn't matter whether you have +4.5 or +5.5. Games very rarely end on 5. On the other hand, having +6.5 is MUCH better than+5.5. since it covers the 6. The key numbers in NRL are pretty much every even number up until 14 (lol), and the 1 and 7. Key numbers aren't really worth that much in NRL as compared to NFL, it's just that non key numbers are worth nothing at all.

"I always, repeat, always take the points over the divvie - always."

This might save you from some frustrating losses/draws, but it's not the best way to bet. You have to find out what a point is worth, and then compare it to the better price you could get, and then choose whichever one has the larger edge.

"Do take into account youve done the research youself rather than taking tips off people on forums and making a bet. I believe its your money,and you only have yourself to blame if the tips go wrong"

In general yeh. Don't just follow someone posting on a forum. You can do so if you have done the research and decide it's worth the risk, but without something like longterm&100% legit records to analyze, it's best to stay clear.

Eg if someone had hit 55% (against the spread) over a few hundred picks and you KNEW they had achieved this, then there's a 90% chance that they are at least breakeven vs -110 ($1.91).

"Always withdraw winnings...keep your bank at a set amount."

I totally disagree, and know alot of other people would too. You are depriving yourself of alot of profit. If you manage your bankroll/risk well then there is NO reason to withdraw money. By reinvesting winnings, you experience the 9th wonder of the world- compound interest :D

"Would a ROI of 20% (current ROI for ATP betting: see ATP Tennis Thread) be sufficient in order to make a decent amount of cash from punting on the side?"

You make make plenty off MUCH less.

"i started betting recently starting with a set bank and going 5 or 10% as a stake,"

I wouldn't go above 5%. I know you do it for fun etc so you probally don't want to be betting 2%, but you have to be hitting over 57% to be betting 10% of your bankroll. Aussie markets are softer than US markets (unless you bet at the TAB lol), but it's still very hard to do better than 55%.

[saratoga samchaz]

Mr. J et. al, a general rule of thumb in the NFL is a 1/2 point is worth another 10% (or at least that is what you are charged to BUY the "hook" (a half point).)

Like Mr. J said, Key numbers are where you want to buy the half point (3, 7, 10, and even 14) Not that it can't come into play but the law of averages are in your favor with key numbers.

There is also a chart for betting the money line (Divvie) and it's comparison to the point spread. For example, -140 = -3 POINTS or +120 = +2- pts. Not exact but a close example. Actually this applies for college football as well. This is the real football to make money on as the information you have can give you quite an edge on soft lines and lazy bookies.

[saratoga samchaz]

It is really nice to not have to worry about taking action on this beautiful Sat. in Delaware. For the first time since 1989, I am not handcuffed to a phone, repeating lines for 50 some odd games, and stressing over every hungover college kids' stupid mistake on the field! LOL Of course, I miss the benefits and the constant action.

[Mr J]

I was talking NRL ;)

"Mr. J et. al, a general rule of thumb in the NFL is a 1/2 point is worth another 10%"

Obviously depends on the line. Not worth much at all going from 8.5 to 9, but if you can get it on the 3 that's huge. Because not all points are equal there's also some decent EV to be had in selling points.

"Key numbers are where you want to buy the half point (3, 7, 10, and even 14)"

The 3 for 20 cents or less. 7,14 and 17 for 10 cents or less. 10 isn't generally worth it.

For anyone thinking of betting NFL, Sharp Sports Betting by Stanford Wong is a good place to start.

[saratoga samchaz]

Understood J. Same theory no matter the game,eh. depending on the scoring system. Who is the best team right now in NRL?

[punta]

hey guys

sorry to get a little of topic but in saratoga's first post he mentioned "line" betting alot. what is line betting exactly?

To add to this discussion, i hope to be able to live of my gambling one day. i predominately bet sports such as soccer league and a bit of tennis but i have a go at horse racing and poker aswell. i dont really have any kind of staking plan. if i like something ill do my research and bet however much i am comfortable with.

The problem with trying to become a fulltime sports punter is monday through to thursday there isnt much at all as i stick to sports i know. soccer and league are weekend sports and there isnt a tennis game on every day and anyway most favourites are at stupid prices anyway. Maybe when im retired ill be a fulltime punter but until then im happy with the extra cash i make on sports betting, helps with loans, bills, etc....

good luck all this weekend
punta

[karla909]

Hi Punta
The line is the points start one team gets to make a bet relatively even. In the following example from Centrebet, the line on Melbourne is -3.5, ie they must win by 4 or more to win. Tennis is more hectic on Monday then any other day and is more active on Monday to Thursday then the weekend. I agree the prices on favs in tennis is horrible.

Win Line

Melbourne Storm $1.67 -3.5 $1.92
North Queensland $2.15 +3.5 $1.88

[saratoga samchaz]

Sorry Punta. Sometimes I use the American vernacular without thinking it may be called something different down under. Usually I try to use both ways of saying it, if I know the Aussie version. And I see that Karla called our "point spread" a point start. Same thing. We also don't usually put the amount of money you lay or take with said point start because, in American foots, it is almost always -11/10 on a win play on either side, regardless of the "line", "spread", or "start". One of the more popular wagers on NFL, is the parlay. Two teams, both must win, pays back 3-1, but must pay -120 if either loses. I don't like them, but lots of players do.

[punta]

hey guys,
thanks for your explanations, much appreciated.

[Mr J]

It's called a few different things down here, mainly because books use different terms.

Spread, point spread, handicap, start, line, etc are all terms used down here.

[Silver_and_sand]

Question for full-time, successful punters:

Assuming you bet with IASbet, Centrebet, etc. (anyone other than TAB), and if you are consistently successful, wouldn't the bookies end up restricting your account so that you can only wager small bets, or maybe even ban you in an effort to save their bottom line?

I was just reading how IASbet had a $5.24 million operating loss for the 04/05 year. Just trying to put myself in the shoes of an IASbet manager; wouldn't you at least restrict some of your clients that are winning consistently?

Have any of you had your account restricted because you were too successful? Is this an action that is prevalent, or maybe only something done by the less reputable bookies? If you are very successful, how do you avoid being restricted, or is something that should not be of concern?

[saratoga samchaz]

Silver, All bookies reserve the right to refusal, but don't really want to use it. However, if the customer consistently wins large sums, then the book would be foolish not to at least make some kind of adjustments (lowering limits, taking certain games and teams off the board, etc.) I, personally, remember one customer that I had to finally surrender to, after about 5 years of him winning. I couldn't take it anymore and just told him the truth, "you're too good!" I couldn't beat him and he was eating away at the profits. I wouldn't judge the book as being disreputable if they have done this, as long as it was done in the correct manner. I wish I had bookies wanting to ban me!!! LOL!

[thebookie]

I primarily bet AFL.

Out of season, I bet NBL and Cricket.

Also working on some horse racing.

Mainly stick to HH and sometimes margin or line, but, not very often.

Also doing some work on some new stats.