Grrr!!!

[Tenacious Spirit]

I don't have a whinge very often, about bad jockey rides and bad luck and that but i am going to have a whinge now. This rule about horses not getting a fair chance being in place to "protect punters" is a farce. It protected the punters that backed Mr. celebrity and thats all. But it doesn't protect the punters who actually found the winner. I didn't rate Mr Celbrity as even a place chance, and i backed Men at Work and On a Jeune. Now i was wrong on my assessment of Mr celeb, as had he not missed the start he would have probably(you never know) placed or even won. But you can only speculate. I did find the actual winner in on a jeune, who had probably a harder run the mr celebrity did anyway, wide the trip at the back of the field. I am greatful that i had a win on the race and 12 dollars is still a nice divi, i didn;t bet all that much so it wasn;t the end of the world. But if i was betting larger ammounts i would be pretty ****ed off; a five dollar difference in price is huge.

Why should all the other punters in the race take the fall, for one horses bad barrier behaviour?

Furthermore, i can see a lot more losers out of the whole situation than winners. Bookies lose out. Punters apart from those on mr celeb lose out. the owners lose out.

All that said, what happens now for Mr celeb and the cup?

cheers and thanks for listening to my uncharacteristic whinge.

[xptdriver]

I don't have a whinge very often, about bad jockey rides and bad luck and that but i am going to have a whinge now. This rule about horses not getting a fair chance being in place to "protect punters" is a farce. It protected the punters that backed Mr. celebrity and thats all. But it doesn't protect the punters who actually found the winner. I didn't rate Mr Celbrity as even a place chance, and i backed Men at Work and On a Jeune. Now i was wrong on my assessment of Mr celeb, as had he not missed the start he would have probably(you never know) placed or even won. But you can only speculate. I did find the actual winner in on a jeune, who had probably a harder run the mr celebrity did anyway, wide the trip at the back of the field. I am greatful that i had a win on the race and 12 dollars is still a nice divi, i didn;t bet all that much so it wasn;t the end of the world. But if i was betting larger ammounts i would be pretty ****ed off; a five dollar difference in price is huge.

Why should all the other punters in the race take the fall, for one horses bad barrier behaviour?

Furthermore, i can see a lot more losers out of the whole situation than winners. Bookies lose out. Punters apart from those on mr celeb lose out. the owners lose out.

All that said, what happens now for Mr celeb and the cup?

cheers and thanks for listening to my uncharacteristic whinge.


Gday ten

Congrats on finding the winner...

U are entitled to have a whinge... we all are.. I would have been screaming had they declared Mr C a runner. It saved me a substantial amount of cash.. As I had Mr C just about unbeatable in that race...what I will say, is, I believe that under the rules that operate in Victoria, had Mr C run a hole there is no option to declare it a non runner, the placings stand.. That was changed I believe after a race earlier in the year, I am open to correction on that tho.

Had I not had money on Mr C I would still have supported the decision, the horse was not afforded a fair start.. it was that simple.. and IMHO was the best of good things beaten.. Now we could go down the road of once the last gates close the race starts, but how fair would that be? We would still have pple going crook

As for where to now... I believe Mr C is heading for the Saab. dont know how that effects his chances of getting a MC start tho...

[La Mer]

Gday ten

Congrats on finding the winner...

U are entitled to have a whinge... we all are.. I would have been screaming had they declared Mr C a runner. It saved me a substantial amount of cash.. As I had Mr C just about unbeatable in that race...what I will say, is, I believe that under the rules that operate in Victoria, had Mr C run a hole there is no option to declare it a non runner, the placings stand.. That was changed I believe after a race earlier in the year, I am open to correction on that tho.

Had I not had money on Mr C I would still have supported the decision, the horse was not afforded a fair start.. it was that simple.. and IMHO was the best of good things beaten.. Now we could go down the road of once the last gates close the race starts, but how fair would that be? We would still have pple going crook

As for where to now... I believe Mr C is heading for the Saab. dont know how that effects his chances of getting a MC start tho...


If he wins the Saab, he gets exempted into the Melbourne Cup, he is doesn't he probably misses out altogether as he is well down the list as he about 60th in the order.

[Rudolph]

Me and a couple of mates had the tri slashed from over $800 to just under $400.
Considering we still had the $12 winner $3 placegetter was very rough.

My blood is still boiling from yesterday!!!

[Real Deal]

Mr Celebrity and Leica Falcon in one of the biggest match races ever to get into the melbourne Cup.

Both HAVE to win the Saab to qualify.

[xptdriver]

Me and a couple of mates had the tri slashed from over $800 to just under $400.
Considering we still had the $12 winner $3 placegetter was very rough.

My blood is still boiling from yesterday!!!

Gday Rudolph...

I can understand what u are saying there... But the pool would have been slashed with the fav being taken out and no time for punters who had Mr C to reinvest.. again I many be wrong.. but it seems that is what would have happened

Anyone know the answer to this

say you boxxed 4 runners (24 bucks) in a tri.. say you had the 3 that won and ran the holes and Mr C.. do you lose your bet ( ie have the monies returned) or do you win the tri and have an extra 18$ returned?

[Stix]

I too was spurned ! :(

It's all just wrong....... If the freakin door hadn't opened, then fair enough = NON RUNNER !

But just beacuse it's a lazy sh*t and decided to rest on the barrier (which IMHO the jokey should be held entirely responsible for!)..... bad luck!

Just like the Harness......... if the leave the start (1,10,35 lengths behind the last in the field) it's in and a RUNNER ............the gear breaks / saddle slips / runs thru the barrier...... bad luck !

Just like in the dogs....... if they bite each other...... bad luck! :D

If they step out - they are a runner !

Showing my ignorance I know........ but you get out of the barrier - you started !

[Sportz]

say you boxed 4 runners (24 bucks) in a tri.. say you had the 3 that won and ran the holes and Mr C.. do you lose your bet ( ie have the monies returned) or do you win the tri and have an extra 18$ returned?
You win your bet and get the $18 refund.

[Sportz]

Mr Celebrity and Leica Falcon in one of the biggest match races ever to get into the melbourne Cup.

Both HAVE to win the Saab to qualify.
Pretty sure you'll find that first AND second from the SAAB get in, and if they run 1-2, they'll both be in.

[Sportz]

Me and a couple of mates had the tri slashed from over $800 to just under $400.
Considering we still had the $12 winner $3 placegetter was very rough.

My blood is still boiling from yesterday!!!
Did you have Mr Celebrity in your trifectas? If not, you shouldn't be upset, because if he had got a fair start, you would have got $0.

[Sportz]

I can understand what u are saying there... But the pool would have been slashed with the fav being taken out and no time for punters who had Mr C to reinvest.. again I many be wrong.. but it seems that is what would have happened

Yeah, it's quite simple really. Seeing as he was the favourite, obviously a lot of trifecta money would have been invested on him. All of that money is simply taken out of the pool and refunded to the punters. And the dividend for the trifecta would obviously be bigger with Mr Celebrity in the field but unplaced, than it would be with him out of the field.

[La Mer]

Pretty sure you'll find that first AND second from the SAAB get in, and if they run 1-2, they'll both be in.

That's not right Sportz, ONLY the WINNER of the Saab is exempted - to the second placegetter it means twiddly dee.

It used to be the case that the second placegetter got exempted but they have changed the rules re exemption etc.

There are just two Australian races that offer exemption into the Melbourne Cup, and they are the Cox Plate and the Saab and then it's only the winners of those two races.

[Sportz]

what I will say, is, I believe that under the rules that operate in Victoria, had Mr C run a hole there is no option to declare it a non runner, the placings stand.. That was changed I believe after a race earlier in the year, I am open to correction on that tho.


Yep. You're right there. He only just missed out on 3rd yesterday too.

[Sportz]

That's not right Sportz, ONLY the WINNER of the Saab is exempted - to the second placegetter it means twiddly dee.

It used to be the case that the second placegetter got exempted but they have changed the rules re exemption etc.

There are just two Australian races that offer exemption into the Melbourne Cup, and they are the Cox Plate and the Saab and then it's only the winners of those two races.
When did they change that??? It's been the first two from the SAAB for as long as I can remember.

[La Mer]

When did they change that??? It's been the first two from the SAAB for as long as I can remember.

Sportz - I assume it was this year, if not then last year, but the balloting conditions are:

The following horses, if any should be a final acceptor for the 2005 Emirates Melbourne Cup, shall be exempt from any ballot on this race:
- 2005 VRC Saab Quality winner,
- 2005 Doncaster Cup (UK) winner,
- 2005 Irish St Leger (IRE) winner,
- 2005 Sankei Sho All Comers (JPN) winner,
- 2005 MVRC Cox Plate winner.

The other thing that has changed is in regard to penalties, whereby horses winning WFA, Set Weights or Set Weight & Penaties can now be given a weight penalty. That never used to be case either.

PENALTIES
The winner, after declaration of weights, of
- any handicap flat race of the advertised value of $60,000 or over to the winner, (2005 VRC Saab Quality excepted) or
- any flat race run over a distance of 2300 metres or further of the advertised value of $60,000 or over to the winner, (2005 VRC Saab Quality excepted) to carry such additional weight (if any) for each win as the Handicapper shall determine, (not exceeding in the aggregate 4½ kgs).

[Sportz]

Yeah, now that you mention it, I remember them mentioning it after last year. In recent years, there hasn't really been the need for 2 horses to qualify from the race as less and less good quality horses are racing on Derby day. Funny thing, as soon as they change it, we actually get two top horses going for one spot.

There's still a chance that Leica Falcon could get in without winning the race. Quite a few horses are dropping out of the running and by Cup time, he's probably going to be pretty close to the top 24.

[Matilda]

Will they declare Mr C as non runner or winner if he won that race yesterday?

[jonron]

Correct me if I am wrong as im new here,but did it not be the case that the Derby winners connections have the option of paying for a start in the Cup?Stylish Century comes to mind here.I'm against 3yo running as they are too immature,but didnt he run a great race?2nd from memory(which is fading with age!)

[GreySongDoestheDouble]

Sorry but the starter should never have released the field if Mr Celebrity has his leg on the stallsa. Right decision in my opinion..........and I can do more than speculate and say that Mr Celebrity WOULD HAVE WON if it had a fair chance. Anyone who looks at the race surely would have to agree. If I was was you I'd be taking the 12's very happily and counting my lucky stars that Mr Celebrity didn't get a fair crack.

And no, I did not back Mr Celebrity, I had the toppy.

[jonron]

I didnt see mr c,s race,but years ago I had a substantial bet on a nag called Arena in the CC which missed the start by about 10 lengths,yet WAS NOT declared a non runner???It was also ridden by a certain hoop being critisized in another thread.There are certainly some dubious decisions made in all states by the powers that be.Can anyone tell me how Taufans Melody kept his CC win after knocking half the field out of the race??

[La Mer]

Correct me if I am wrong as im new here,but did it not be the case that the Derby winners connections have the option of paying for a start in the Cup?Stylish Century comes to mind here.I'm against 3yo running as they are too immature,but didnt he run a great race?2nd from memory(which is fading with age!)

That's correct, the VRC Derby winner is not already nominated can nominate for a fee of around about $130,000 - the catch is it has to carry at least WFA.

[xptdriver]

Will they declare Mr C as non runner or winner if he won that race yesterday?

Winner.... if he runs a hole the positions stand

[La Mer]

Will they declare Mr C as non runner or winner if he won that race yesterday?

Had Mr. C. won, or ran second or third in yesterday's Geelong Cup he could not have been declared a non-runner. The stewards had the power to declare placegetters non-runners removed a few months ago.

[Imagele]

The withdrawal of Mr C. as a starter knocked around $500-00 from the trifecta dividend.
The puzzling thing was the initial relatively small trifecta div. with Mr. C out of the place.
Interesting to note that when Bakula jumped tailed off at Cranbourne today with an attendant ripping his head to the side just as the barriers opened, he was declared a runner.

[Lady Frisco]

Had Mr. C. won, or ran second or third in yesterday's Geelong Cup he could not have been declared a non-runner. The stewards had the power to declare placegetters non-runners removed a few months ago. Think it has been like that for a while though. I remember watching a race either late last year or early this year. Only 4 horses in it, but the odds on (or more like Money back; was only paying $1.02) favourite missed the start by 10 lengths. One of the barrier attendents had held the reign too long and he was badly held back. Although, unlike Mr C., this favourite won the race like a favourite, making up the 10 lengths easy and beating the other three by another 4 or 5.. I thought that was pretty damn impressive for a sprint. Point is, despite the fact that his missing the start wasnt his fault, he was decalred a runner and winner. I know it was ages ago though because that was way back when I used to bet on other horses but my own, and Lady has been racing since Late 04 now. I have only bet on other horses in big races since she started so... yeah, thats how I figure its been a while.

I should probably add that this was down in Tassie i believe, so it may have just been their stewards that handled it that way.

[La Mer]

Think it has been like that for a while though. I remember watching a race either late last year or early this year. Only 4 horses in it, but the odds on (or more like Money back; was only paying $1.02) favourite missed the start by 10 lengths. One of the barrier attendents had held the reign too long and he was badly held back. Although, unlike Mr C., this favourite won the race like a favourite, making up the 10 lengths easy and beating the other three by another 4 or 5.. I thought that was pretty damn impressive for a sprint. Point is, despite the fact that his missing the start wasnt his fault, he was decalred a runner and winner. I know it was ages ago though because that was way back when I used to bet on other horses but my own, and Lady has been racing since Late 04 now. I have only bet on other horses in big races since she started so... yeah, thats how I figure its been a while.

I should probably add that this was down in Tassie i believe, so it may have just been their stewards that handled it that way.

Lady Frisco - In such circumstances, the stewards would not declare a horse a non-runner.

The rule disallowing the stewards the option of declaring placegetters non-runners was actually amended in March this year.

[Lady Frisco]

Lady Frisco - In such circumstances, the stewards would not declare a horse a non-runner.

The rule disallowing the stewards the option of declaring placegetters non-runners was actually amended in March this year.
Entirely possible. Back then, I paid little attention to long boring details and only really gave the stewards a thought in protests. I honestly, have paid more attention to rules and such as an owner than I ever did as a punter. Back then, the most I was interested in was how well the horse could run, and whether or not it was a Lion Hunter. They have never let me down.

I missed the race in question, unfortunately. Kids get fractious if I turn the TV off Nick Jr. But from what I have read, it does sound like the only ones involved in Mr C. missing the start was well, Mr C. Doesn't sound like Non runner material to me. We do have to keep in mind that the starter cant see every part of every horse before he presses that button. He can see a horse rearing up, but not one laying on the wall. If all horses that werent ready to start when the starter presses the button were non runners, then I had one fall asleep in the barriers and I wouldnt mind that start being struck from her record, LOL. (Joke - Although she did fall asleep in the barrier on us!)

But as I said, missing the race disqualifies my opinion somewhat. I am simply going on the hear-say in here.

[harry_boodes]

Last year the first & second from the Saab where guaranteed a run in the MC,

The winner was Don Raphael and second,Catchemeifyoucan

Has something changed?

[Sportz]

Yes, apparently it has. Certainly caught me out.

[Tenacious Spirit]

How does the Saab form usually stack up in the cup. Speaking from no knowlege i would guess it wouldn't. Considering the horses likely to win it are horses who havn't already qualified for the cup nad are that desperate to get in they have to run like a week before. Then there is the backup into the 3200. Going on last years runners don raphael and catchmeifyoucan, both clearly not up to MC standard, this would go along with my theory. But if someone with more historical knowledge than me would like to correct my 'on the spot' theory that would be good.

Cheers.

[La Mer]

How does the Saab form usually stack up in the cup. Speaking from no knowlege i would guess it wouldn't. Considering the horses likely to win it are horses who havn't already qualified for the cup nad are that desperate to get in they have to run like a week before. Then there is the backup into the 3200. Going on last years runners don raphael and catchmeifyoucan, both clearly not up to MC standard, this would go along with my theory. But if someone with more historical knowledge than me would like to correct my 'on the spot' theory that would be good. Cheers.

Brew who won the Melbourne Cup in 2000 came through the Saab, is one that comes to mind. He wouldn't have got a run in the Cup if he had not won three days earlier.

But other than that, I don't think the Saab has been a great indicator re the Melbourne Cup as normally the better types run in the Mackinnon Stakes on their way to the Melbourne Cup.

[Rudolph]

Did you have Mr Celebrity in your trifectas? If not, you shouldn't be upset, because if he had got a fair start, you would have got $0.

Yeah, he was definately in my tri, as 99% of tri punters prob had in theirs!

[TESTAROSSA]

Watched the race at a local TAB, a guy there had the first 4 with Mr C running 4th until of course he was declared a non runner and unfortunately he didn't have Command N Conquer which was elevated to 4th, wouldn't wanna be him thats for sure.