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zaklopaca
15th November 2005, 03:42 PM
The fact that Makybe Diva is being compared to Phar Lap is a tribute to her, considering she is a mare being compared to a male horse regarded as the best in Australia, rather than another mare. That she as a mare is challenging her place among male-dominated champions is also impressive. Following her third Melbourne Cup win, comparisons have been made with Phar Lap. Some have been ridiculous or one sided. I have done a bit of research and believe she shouldn't be prejudiced on the basis of Phar Lap's track record, that she didn't race in a time when Phar Lap had to tough it out or that she didn't go down in tragic circumstances. Here are some facts which I hope will do them both justice.

Track record
Phar Lap - 51 starts, 37 wins, including 1 international win
Makybe Diva - 35 starts, 14 wins (failed race in Japan)
This was over a period of 3 years. Numbers alone are not enough to make one superior over the other. People say that Phar Lap had enormous potential when he died as a young horse. Makybe Diva too had enormous potential. We will never know as she is now retired. Anyway, if numbers alone are enough for some to conclude that Phar Lap is greater than Makybe Diva, then it's a poor standard by which to judge. On the basis of that we can say that Carbine is better than Phar Lap (percentage of wins to his starts), as is Kingston Town and American Man O War (an astounding 95% wins, 20 wins from 21 starts in the period of 2 years). Tulloch had 53 starts for 36 wins. Impressive.

Earnings - both had more than 14 million dollars. Nothing more to add than that Makybe Diva earned the same with less starts. The prize pool has certainly gone up since Phar Lap's days, but this was beyond the control of both horses.

Charisma and fame - Phar Lap was a hero during the Depression, a "loser" who became a winner, someone that the average struggling Australian could relate to and a source of optimism for the people. A movie was due to be made about him in the US and since his death, a movie and books about him have come out.
Makybe Diva - the filly nobody wanted to buy in England. I'm certain it was more fate than bad luck. Started out in Victorian country racing at a relatively late age. Loved people's attention following major wins. Popularity to match Phar Lap's in his time, especially around this year's Melbourne Cup. I stumbled across some American horseracing sites, surprised to see that Makybe Diva is popular over there, even though she never raced there. Even U2 knows about her.


Unique achievements - Phar Lap is a huge part of Australian history. I heard about him for the first time in a high school class. I didn't have the facts about him back then, but I remember the teacher mentioning him. To have him being mentioned at a time when the majority of those who saw him race have long since departed, is a legacy of his enduring appeal. His untimely death in mysterious circumstances has also added to the mystique.
Makybe Diva - three Melbourne Cups, the first time in the race's history, a monumental challenge. Experience, reason and odds tipped the scales toward the not achievable, but she did it against all odds. The only Australian horse to have done it in Australia among only a handful of horses from different countries and eras. A very difficult feat, that depends on luck as much as on ability.


Racing versatility and adaptability - Phar Lap had the ability to do well at a variety of distances. He also did well in an impromptu race in Mexico, on which he ran on a dirt track rather than the usual turf, with heavy weights. Not many horses are such good all rounders. Man O War also had to contend with outrageous weights, different surfaces and could run in both clockwise and anticlockwise races, and he is regarded as the best in the 20th century.
Makybe Diva lacks that versatility. She is more of a specialist if the GP and specialist analogy can be used. She didn't do well on her first international race and couldn't adapt to what she wasn't used to. However, she has made up for it by possessing an unusual ability to excel in the Melbourne Cup distance and winning with a record weight for a mare. Some say she could have done the same with a bigger weight. Experience was against her. If she raced with more than 55.5kg, she was unplaced. Her third Melbourne Cup victory defied all logical explanation.

International racing vs home racing - Phar Lap had just embarked on an international venture when he died. His only and greatest international success was the richest race of the time, which today would be the equivalent of the World Cup in Dubai. He was due to race in the US and Europe. He had already proved himself in Australia. International racing was more for financial reasons rather than prestige or variety. Some blamed his owners for being greedy and pushing their luck too far.
Makybe Diva tried her luck in Japan and failed. If she hadn't won the Melbourne Cup for the third time, she may have well won in Dubai and would have made up for her earlier failure. One way or another, she would have either had a presence overseas or done something in Australia which only happens once in a blue moon, which she did this year. Despite not having an international victory, she is well represented overseas, both in America and Europe. Sometimes you don't have to win internationally to become known internationally. To do something extraordinary in your home country is just as significant.

History of the times and racing - Horses such as Phar Lap and those of his era were true Titans, which they had to be to survive. Phar Lap raced at a time when money was in short supply. Times were desperate and some people went to desperate lengths, such as the person who tried to shoot Phar Lap. That didn't stop him from racing in the Melbourne Cup. He also had to contend with heavy shoes, discomfort and pushing himself beyond his limits. Some say that today's horses are weaklings compared to horses from the past. I don't believe they are. With improved nutrition and animal welfare, the constitution of horses hasn't changed; it could only improve. The heavy shoes are outdated. Today's horses could cope with the same conditions, but they are out of fashion.
Makybe Diva - No horse can choose in which era it will live, just like humans. Luck and chance play their part. Makybe Diva shouldn't be discounted just because she had no more control over her birth as did Phar Lap or because she was born at a better time. All I want to say is that I have downloaded images of Phar Lap running in the Melbourne Cup and in Mexico and then I watched Makybe Diva winning the Cox Plate and the Melbourne Cup. I thought I caught glimpses of Phar Lap watching her. There was a feeling of deja vu, as if Phar Lap had entered the future from the past or that I had gone back in time and imagined what it must have been like when Phar Lap raced. No wonder the comparison springs to mind. People will always prefer one over the other, it's a very personal and emotional issue and one to be respected. As for my verdict, they are equally unique, though in totally different ways. They have both done something which puts them in a class of their own, in their own right. Even the jockey who saw both Phar Lap and Makybe Diva refrained from comparing them in terms of superior and inferior. They are different and that is hard to define. All I know is that they have done Australia proud. People can still enjoy a historic moment even in times of prosperity. Phar Lap has been a legend for 75 years. Makybe Diva is a newcomer, but people will eventually get used to that too.

Stix
15th November 2005, 03:49 PM
The fact that Makybe Diva is being compared to Phar Lap is a tribute to her, considering she is a mare being compared to a male horse regarded as the best in Australia, rather than another mare. That she as a mare is challenging her place among male-dominated champions is also impressive. Following her third Melbourne Cup win, comparisons have been made with Phar Lap. Some have been ridiculous or one sided. I have done a bit of research and believe she shouldn't be prejudiced on the basis of Phar Lap's track record, that she didn't race in a time when Phar Lap had to tough it out or that she didn't go down in tragic circumstances. Here are some facts which I hope will do them both justice.

Track record
Phar Lap - 51 starts, 37 wins, including 1 international win
Makybe Diva - 35 starts, 14 wins (failed race in Japan)
This was over a period of 3 years. Numbers alone are not enough to make one superior over the other. People say that Phar Lap had enormous potential when he died as a young horse. Makybe Diva too had enormous potential. We will never know as she is now retired. Anyway, if numbers alone are enough for some to conclude that Phar Lap is greater than Makybe Diva, then it's a poor standard by which to judge. On the basis of that we can say that Carbine is better than Phar Lap (percentage of wins to his starts), as is Kingston Town and American Man O War (an astounding 95% wins, 20 wins from 21 starts in the period of 2 years). Tulloch had 53 starts for 36 wins. Impressive.

Earnings - both had more than 14 million dollars. Nothing more to add than that Makybe Diva earned the same with less starts. The prize pool has certainly gone up since Phar Lap's days, but this was beyond the control of both horses.

Charisma and fame - Phar Lap was a hero during the Depression, a "loser" who became a winner, someone that the average struggling Australian could relate to and a source of optimism for the people. A movie was due to be made about him in the US and since his death, a movie and books about him have come out.
Makybe Diva - the filly nobody wanted to buy in England. I'm certain it was more fate than bad luck. Started out in Victorian country racing at a relatively late age. Loved people's attention following major wins. Popularity to match Phar Lap's in his time, especially around this year's Melbourne Cup. I stumbled across some American horseracing sites, surprised to see that Makybe Diva is popular over there, even though she never raced there. Even U2 knows about her.


Unique achievements - Phar Lap is a huge part of Australian history. I heard about him for the first time in a high school class. I didn't have the facts about him back then, but I remember the teacher mentioning him. To have him being mentioned at a time when the majority of those who saw him race have long since departed, is a legacy of his enduring appeal. His untimely death in mysterious circumstances has also added to the mystique.
Makybe Diva - three Melbourne Cups, the first time in the race's history, a monumental challenge. Experience, reason and odds tipped the scales toward the not achievable, but she did it against all odds. The only Australian horse to have done it in Australia among only a handful of horses from different countries and eras. A very difficult feat, that depends on luck as much as on ability.


Racing versatility and adaptability - Phar Lap had the ability to do well at a variety of distances. He also did well in an impromptu race in Mexico, on which he ran on a dirt track rather than the usual turf, with heavy weights. Not many horses are such good all rounders. Man O War also had to contend with outrageous weights, different surfaces and could run in both clockwise and anticlockwise races, and he is regarded as the best in the 20th century.
Makybe Diva lacks that versatility. She is more of a specialist if the GP and specialist analogy can be used. She didn't do well on her first international race and couldn't adapt to what she wasn't used to. However, she has made up for it by possessing an unusual ability to excel in the Melbourne Cup distance and winning with a record weight for a mare. Some say she could have done the same with a bigger weight. Experience was against her. If she raced with more than 55.5kg, she was unplaced. Her third Melbourne Cup victory defied all logical explanation.

International racing vs home racing - Phar Lap had just embarked on an international venture when he died. His only and greatest international success was the richest race of the time, which today would be the equivalent of the World Cup in Dubai. He was due to race in the US and Europe. He had already proved himself in Australia. International racing was more for financial reasons rather than prestige or variety. Some blamed his owners for being greedy and pushing their luck too far.
Makybe Diva tried her luck in Japan and failed. If she hadn't won the Melbourne Cup for the third time, she may have well won in Dubai and would have made up for her earlier failure. One way or another, she would have either had a presence overseas or done something in Australia which only happens once in a blue moon, which she did this year. Despite not having an international victory, she is well represented overseas, both in America and Europe. Sometimes you don't have to win internationally to become known internationally. To do something extraordinary in your home country is just as significant.

History of the times and racing - Horses such as Phar Lap and those of his era were true Titans, which they had to be to survive. Phar Lap raced at a time when money was in short supply. Times were desperate and some people went to desperate lengths, such as the person who tried to shoot Phar Lap. That didn't stop him from racing in the Melbourne Cup. He also had to contend with heavy shoes, discomfort and pushing himself beyond his limits. Some say that today's horses are weaklings compared to horses from the past. I don't believe they are. With improved nutrition and animal welfare, the constitution of horses hasn't changed; it could only improve. The heavy shoes are outdated. Today's horses could cope with the same conditions, but they are out of fashion.
Makybe Diva - No horse can choose in which era it will live, just like humans. Luck and chance play their part. Makybe Diva shouldn't be discounted just because she had no more control over her birth as did Phar Lap or because she was born at a better time. All I want to say is that I have downloaded images of Phar Lap running in the Melbourne Cup and in Mexico and then I watched Makybe Diva winning the Cox Plate and the Melbourne Cup. I thought I caught glimpses of Phar Lap watching her. There was a feeling of deja vu, as if Phar Lap had entered the future from the past or that I had gone back in time and imagined what it must have been like when Phar Lap raced. No wonder the comparison springs to mind. People will always prefer one over the other, it's a very personal and emotional issue and one to be respected. As for my verdict, they are equally unique, though in totally different ways. They have both done something which puts them in a class of their own, in their own right. Even the jockey who saw both Phar Lap and Makybe Diva refrained from comparing them in terms of superior and inferior. They are different and that is hard to define. All I know is that they have done Australia proud. People can still enjoy a historic moment even in times of prosperity. Phar Lap has been a legend for 75 years. Makybe Diva is a newcomer, but people will eventually get used to that too.Let's just call one "apples"....... the other - "oranges"..... therefore no comparison..... end of communication....... :D

BORDI
17th November 2005, 03:30 PM
hey zap

increased prize money and inflation was taken into account wen the figure was derived that phar lap had earned 14 million...

crash
18th November 2005, 08:20 PM
Tulloch would have thrashed both of them [carrying more weight too] and the Diva by half the straight in any race. Horse power in spades.

In 1957, Tulloch beat Phar Lap's RECORD time in the AJC Derby by more than 2 seconds so work that out in lengths [carrying more weight too] As a 3yo he won 14 of his 16 starts, including the 1957 Caulfield Cup in world record time for the distance. A mysterious illness then robbed him of two years racing and he returned as a 5yo to win another 15 races, the last being the 1961 Brisbane Cup.

Tulloch was trained by the master, T J Smith, who would not credit any horse coming close to Tulloch's ability

He was unplaced once in his whole career.