SUNLINE WINS TODAY !

[Equine Investor]

For the third year Sunline wins Horse Of The Year beating Ethereal by 6 and a half votes.

Truly deserved!

Firstly she's a great mare and horse.

However, given she lost to Northerly twice and that her group 1 victories were fairly weak (even the doncaster where she got a gift weight and beat backmarkers), was it truly deserved or more a case of the heart ruling the head?

[Hammers]

Manikato,
Why do you say Sunline was throw into the Doncaster?
She became only the third horse in 100+ years to carry 2.5 over WFA to win it.
Half a kilo more she probably gets beaten and the handicapper is crucified.
Given the closeness of the finish I say the weight was spot on.

What odds a fourth straight title next year?

Weight compared to WFA scale in handicaps is not all that meaningful - read some of Don Scott' books on this.

If the handicapper was fair dinkum she should have got 59kgs minimum.

Explain this,

How could a two-time Cox plate winner only get 2kgs more than a 3yo?
Sunline had 11 group 1 victories prior to the race
Lonhro (who was scratched anyway) had 1.

If the 58kgs was not a joke, then I don't know what is?

[becareful]

It's probably just me but I think the joke is actually awarding a "Horse of the Year" prize in the first place! I am sure Sunline doesn't care that she is horse of the year! The owners of all the leading horses are probably not that worried about it either - they get their rewards (financial and otherwise) from the horses winning the races not from what people think about their horses.

[Hammers]

Sorry Manikato we'll have to agree to disagree.
The 11 Group One wins argument is fine but didn't you say they were against inferior opposition? Also, didn't you say the WFA scale is not reliable when used in handicap racing context? Taking all of that into account on what basis do you weight Sunline or any horse switching between WFA and Hcps?
Given that in a mares handicap a fortnight before the Doncaster Sunline fell in to beat Singo's mare (forgotten her name) with 60kgs, surely 58 in a race many lenghts stronger was not excessive.
I would be interested to know how many of the "she was thrown in" exponents actually backed Sunline. I'm her biggest fan and backed El MIrada because I thought 58 against the best milers was a bit steep.
Wrong again and you may well think my logic is wrong too but if we all agreed there would be a lot of $1.20 favourites running around wouldn't there?
Cheers.

Different opinions are good for ensuring better prices.

It's all history now, but polls taken after the weights were allocated indicated most thought the 58kgs was generous, which I agree with. How a two time Cox Plate winner only gets 58kg is hard to fathom.

Surely you would agree the 56kg given to Lonhro was harsh?

I had Sunline and Hey Pronto as my two picks for the Doni. HP was largely due to Waterhouse influence.

If Northerly was from NSW or Vic would he get the recognition he deserves? I think so.

Quote from another punter:

"Last night just showed how much how much the press know. 62.5 votes for Sunline, 53 for Ethereal and for the one who beat those two EVERYTIME they have met, 42.5.
How did they work it out? A win in the Coolmore is better than a WFA G1 race called the Underwood stakes? A win in the All Age stakes is better than another WFA G1 named the Caulfield Stakes? What about the WFA championship of Australia, the WS Cox Plate, a 2nd is now better than a 1st. And that 1st is not as good as a handicap mile.
Just goes to show you lot that 26% of our press don't know what they are talking about."

[digger]

Are you from the West Manikato?

No.

Northerly's head-to-head record with Sunline and Ethereal is superior.

Either the media in Melb and Sydney have a dislike for WA horses or they are in love with Sunline? I think it's a combination of the two.

[becareful]

On 2002-07-31 15:27, manikato wrote:

Just goes to show you lot that 26% of our press don't know what they are talking about."


You'd be lucky if 26% of the press DO KNOW what they are talking about! :smile:

Becareful,

I think he got the figures around the wrong way. It should read "74% of the media don't know what they're talking about."

When Northerly beats Sunline for the 3rd time in the spring will he get the recognition he deserves? Or will one-eyed fans continue to make excuses for Sunline's defeats to him?

Better get the excuses ready for the spring.

Here's a few to get you started:

Too old
She's a mare
Not fully fit
The stewards got it wrong
She's won more bucks so it doesn't matter
She's won more races (against plodders)




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: manikato on 2002-07-31 21:12 ]</font>

[storm]

Manikato,
Here's just a list of the so called "plodders" Sunline beat home last season. I have only put horses with at least one G1 win, but a lot of them have won two or more. Tie the not, Sky heights, Ha Ha, Universal Prince, Crawl, Falvelon, El Mirada, Inaflury, Shogun Lodge, Defier, Old Comrade, Sports, Dash for Cash, Cent home, Desert Sky, Freemason, Sports. not a bad group of "plodders" i reckon. Granted, there is no Northerly on that list, but how can you knock the list of most of the ones i have named? Sunline was beaten twice by Northerly and once to Piavonic. Northerly was beaten twice by Old Comrade and once to Corprate Bruce. While nobody is doubting the credentials of Northerly, Sunline took the honours, because not only the media who voted for her, but most of Australia in general, think she is the superior horse, and as for making excuses for spring, it does'nt matter what she does, she has done it all anyway, she has nothing to prove, but having said that i think she will take all before her and prove once and for all, that she is one of the greatest horses, that we have seen, or certainly the best i have seen, but that is only my opinion. GO THE MIGHTY MARE.

Tie the Knot - melb duffer and backmarker
Sky heights - handicap horse
Ha Ha - 3yo fillie
Universal Prince - overrated & a backmarker, Crawl - rarely wins
Falvelon - sprinter who hates pressure
El Mirada - avg horse
Inaflury - over races & can't finish off
Shogun Lodge - backmarker who always runs 2nd
Defier - backmarker who runs 2nd a lot
Old Comrade - tired after Aust cup
Sports - old sprinter
Dash for Cash - 3yo
Cent home - avg horse
Desert Sky - Does he even race anymore?
Freemason - plodder

OC defeats of Northerly
1st time - Had a 7.5kg weight advantage, and Northerly was tired after the Cox plate.
2nd time - Broke 2 mins for 2000m. Sunline has never broken 2.02mins.

Add to that Northerly has beaten OC 3 times.

Corporate Bruce is a good horse who managed to catch Northerly early in the campaign when he was 50% fit.

According to trainer and jockey Sunline was as good as ever last year when she got beaten twice by Northerly. The 1st time was over 1600m at MV. Surely she should have won this one but couldn't because Northerly is a stronger horse!

[Hammers]

Manikato,
Re Tie The Knot
Consider this - if Sunline and Shane Dye had never been conceived TTK would have a Cox Plate and Melbourne Cup on the mantlepiece along with the Underwood Stakes and the multiple Group One placings (Vic Derby,Caulfield Stakes, Caulfield Cup etc.)
Not bad for a duffer.
Re Ha Ha
What is the relevance of the 3YO filly reference? Do we blindly scrub other 3YOF's such as Surround, Emancipation, Light Fingers etc etc etc because of their age/sex or is there a better reason to discount Ha Ha.
I can't understand all the emotion on this and other sites re this stupid Northerly -v- Sunline stuff. This isn't a football match or politics or religion. They are horses who we are privileged to watch race year after year and luckily they clash occassionally. If you try hard enough you can downplay the achievements of any horse in history with a bit of rhetoric and a twist of the stats. If you can't enjoy them both without mindless denigration of one or the other then I feel sorry for you.
I often wonder what the tall poppy assassins would have done in the Tulloch -v- Todman era had the internet been around.

If only Shane Dye never rode and the track wasn't a bog on Cup day, Veandercross would have the Cups double and 10 group 1s as a 3/4 yo.

If he didn't get injured he goes on to win 16 group 1s or so and rated much higher.

"If only"

"If only" Sunline could beat Northerly.

quote Fred Kersley;...."Deeds on the racetrack should count more than popularity when you are talking about a racehorse. Sunline can't beat him on the racetrack, she can only beat him on the awards".

[Hammers]

Manikato,
I'm not a Northerly knocker and never will be - you'd have to be silly just as you would have to be silly to knock Sunline. My favourite horse at the moment is My Czech Chick because I backed it yesterday and hopefully I'll have a few new favourite horses after Saturday.
I agree Veandercross was a topliner - the Naturalism clashes were fantastic as 3YO's. Sir Dapper -v- Emancipation another favourite rivalry.

[Paddy]

Did you hear about the guy who went to the races and while there he observed a roman catholic priest who went over to a horse and sprinkled it with holy water and the horse went on to win the race, streaks ahead of the opposition, then at before the next race he saw the priest go over to another horse and sprinkle it with holy water, and like the first horse it went on to win it's race, so the guy said to him self if the priest sprinlkes another horse with holy water I am going to bet every penny I have on that horse, and sure enough the priest went over to another horse and sprinkled it with holy water, and the other guy went to a bookie and bet every penny he had on this horse. Then the race started and the horse that the priest sprinkled with holy water dropped dead about 100 yards after the start of the race, and the gug was devestated, so he went over to the priest and said what are you playing at, the last two horses you sprinkled with holy water went on to win their races, and this last one you sprinkled drop dead after only 100 yards, and i had put every penny I had on it's nose what are you playing at. The priest replied you are a Protestant aren't you and the guy admitted that he was, and said but how do you know that, the priest said because you don't know the difference between giving a blessing and administering the last rights.

[storm]

Not bad Manikato,
You say to all Sunline supporters to get their excuses ready for the spring even before the big races start, yet you are making excuses as to why Northerly was defeated 3 times last season. Are you serious?, Northerly got done by the better horses on the day, that's right on the day, not over a career. Don't worry, there is always next season, but then again the Mighty Mare also has next season. :grin:

P.s I noticed you wrote that when Corporate Bruce beat Northerly he was only 50% fit, On that occasion he was 2nd up, yet on his only other two second up runs, he produced 2 victories (and that is not including a 28 day break he had, first start after that he came 2nd at Ascot, the 2nd race from that break he won the Carlyon Cup, that would make it 3 wins, but we will call that a freshen up) Also you mentioned that he has beaten Old Comrade 3 times, i can only find twice, the G2 St George Stakes and the G1 Railway, and OC has beaten him in the G1 Railway and the G1 Australian Cup. Can you let me know the other one please? I can't find it anywhere.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: storm on 2002-08-01 12:43 ]</font>

[Paddy]

Hey ! Did ya know I'm learning chinese?

Hope some day to be a famous international version of our own Equine Investor (sounds classy, dont it?)

This is what I've learn't so far:

That's not right - Sum Ting Wong

Are you harbouring a fugitive? - Hu Yu Hai Ding?

See me ASAP - Kum Hia Nao

Stupid Man - Dum Gai

Small Horse - Tai Ni Po Ni

Did you go to the beach? - Wai Yu So Tan?

I bumped into a coffee table - Ai Bang Mai Ni

I think you need a face lift - Chin Tu Fat

It's very dark in here - Wai So Dim?

I thought you were on a diet - Wai Yu Mun Ching?

This is a tow away zone - No Pah King

Our meeting is scheduled for next week - Wai Yu Kum Nao?

Staying out of sight - Lei Ying Lo

He's cleaning his automobile - Wa Shing Ka

Your body odour is offensive - Yu Stin Ki Pu

[becareful]

Dat Foo Nee

I do realise I was making excuses for Northerly but they were real excuses not pretend ones as was the case with Sunline.

* Northerly was being aimed at the Cox Plate much later on so the 2nd up defeat had little meaning. Regardless Corp Bruce is a good horse anyway.

* The defeat after the Cox Plate had no meaning as Northerly had 7.5kgs more and was tired. Any other trainer would have spelled the horse.

* The defeat in the Australian Cup was fair and square. OC ran pretty damn quick that day and is a very good horse on his day.

So really you have 1 defeat by OC that means anything. The time was 2 seconds quicker than Sunline has ever run. Put her in that race and she gets beaten.

As for Sunline's defeats, prior to the race BOTH the trainer and jockey said she was in good shape.

* First defeat over 1600m at MV - how can you find excuses for that one? Sunline is more suited to both MV and 1600m than Northerly and she still lost. Add to that Northerly had more weight.

* Second defeat in Cox Plate. Norterly again carried more weight and won. No excuses here.

PS: I'm not from Perth.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: quapi on 2002-08-01 18:27 ]</font>

[storm]

You wrote " the defeat after the Cox Plate meant nothing as he was tired"
He had a 27 day freshen up, what was he doing, running marathons?

Also from you "First defeat over 1600m at the Valley, how can you find excuses for that one?" If you care to go over my previous posts you will not find one excuse about Sunline's losses, i do not want to make any, nor do i need to make any. Who are these people you are reffering to, making these excuses? I believe you are the only one. Anyway, why would i want to make any when i get so much amusement out of reading yours, and one more thing, you were wrong when you said Sunline has'nt beaten Northerly, she beat him the other night for horse of the year honours remember, the third year in a row she has won it, but you already knew that, did'nt you, and was'nt there something about a hall of fame?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: storm on 2002-08-01 14:23 ]</font>

Yes, she can't beat him on the track so she has to rely on awards off the track.

Horse of the year means about as much as being ranked no 1 in the world.

Any tennis player would rather win Wimbleton and be ranked lower, than lose Wimbleton and be ranked no 1 based on wins against plodders.

[storm]

If your arguments/excuses were at least half as good as your namesake, i would find you credible, but unfortunately, they are not.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Moderator 2 on 2002-08-01 18:24 ]</font>

[Moderator B]

Guy please keep things pleasant. Personal attacks achieve nothing. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but aggressive posts only lower the mood of the forum.

Cheers.

[storm]

Sorry,i was just about done with that anyway.

The score is 2:0
I don't need to say anything else.
Sunline had no excuses.
If Marion Jones is faster than Maurice Greene then I'll agree with you. Until then, not likely.

[Paddy]

Begods ! Manikato & now Tulloch !
Have we by chance a Mr Ed out there as well?

[Paddy]

Well leapin leprechauns, it seems we do (or did) have a Mr Ed !

Mr Ed, the original talking horse, now there’s a blast from the past.

Reminds me of a joke (sorry, I can’t help meself):

Three racehorses were sitting in a bar bragging to each other about their life accomplishments.

The first horse boasts "I've been in 59 races and I've won 35 of them."

"That's nothing," says the second horse. "I've raced 97 times, and I've won 78 of them!"

The third horse joins in: "Well, I've raced 122 times and I've won 102!"

Just then, the horses hear a voice say, "I've got you all beat!"

The horses look down and see a greyhound.

"I've raced over 200 times, and I have NEVER lost!"

The horses look at the dog in amazement !?!



One of them says "How about that! A talking dog!!"

[storm]

Just a list of the G1 winning "plodders" The Mighty Mare has defeated and a list of their prizemoney.

Tie the knot $6,212,835
Shogun Lodge $4,495,044
Sky Heights $4,212,990
Falvelon $3,472,813
Ha Ha $2,982,665
Uni Prince $2,965,629
Freemason $1,904,930
Old Comrade $1,782,250
Crawl $1,326,420
Sports $1,197,990
Inaflury $1,172,535
El Mirada $1,137,490
Defier $908,250
Desert Sky $603,950
Cent Home $559,502

Total: $34,935,293
Average: $2,329,019

Not a bad group of "plodders" in anyone's book, i would do anything to own any one of these less than talented horses (tounge firmly in cheek)I wonder if any of the connections will give me their share, i'm sure they would be happy to get rid of the stress and burden of owning one of these hacks.

Paddy,

Very good.

Where do you get all these horse jokes from?

[storm]

Just as i thought.

BW's are more interesting.

I can't believe anyone would get up at 6.30am to write that.

"You must be a little insecure"

"Manikato" we do not tolerate those comments. YOU ARE RESTRICTED.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: quapi on 2002-08-02 11:46 ]</font>

[storm]

I get up at about 3.30 every morning. I always log on at that time, as it's my first break, so it was nothing unusual really. Plus you had nothing to say about that thread, so it was more than worth it.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: storm on 2002-08-02 10:44 ]</font>

I feel sorry for you


"Manikato" we do not tolerate patronising comments on this Forum.
YOU ARE RESTRICTED.





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: quapi on 2002-08-02 11:47 ]</font>

[storm]

Don't worry about me mate, i finish at 10am and then have the rest of the day to do as i please, it's good work if you can get it.

baking bread or riding ponies?

[storm]

It's actually a newsagency.

You shouldn't believe half of what you read in those newpapers. Actual events and how they are reported are often a long way apart.

[storm]

For once, i totally agree with you, the papers are full of crap, it's lucky i don't get all the facts that i have stated in previous posts from these papers, as they would most probably be wrong, but they are'nt.

I got the impression that all that nonsense came from the newspapers.

[storm]

No, they came from the Racing Services Bureau and if you call these facts nonsense and think they are wrong, i suggest that you take it up with them. I've gotta fly, i'm sure there will be more comments from your good self, to keep this debate going.

[rufhabit]

look no one can dispute that sunline is a great mare and has runs on the board and her greatest asset over her career has been her soundness. lets elope won group 1 races from 1400 to 3200 metres, sunline will never and never could have done that. there is chinks in her armour and even if she were to win a third cox plate she realistically cannot be considered the greatest ever. kingston town, super impose, might and power and old gunsynd could do it all.

[storm]

Rufhabit,
First of all, welcome to the forum, secondly, i or nobody else claimed she was the greatest ever, all i have mentioned is she would have to be up there, at the very least in the top 5, that's my opinion anyway, thirdly, you say there is chinks in her armour because she can't run 3200, look at say, 100m spinters, Lewis, Green, Michael Johnson (not Ben) Fredericks, i could go on and on, but i won't, just because they can't run the 800m, 1500m, marathons etc, does that make them any less worthy to be labled some of the gratest ever? i think not. That is just one example, but if you look at a great majority of sports, you will find that most athletes and animals, concentrate on certain distances that their bodys can handle, or what distances they are most suited. Of course there are exceptions in every sport, as you have eluded to with the brilliant horses you have named and look at Thorpey, he is an absolute freak, but when all is said and done,i do take your point,but these horses and athletes, make up what would have to be the tiniest of percentages and are very rare to say the least. Lastly, why would connections want to concentrate on the distance races, they have $11 million reasons not to.

[seamerthechamp]

Sunline is a great champion whether you like
it or not! but there is two other horses i
would rated equal or better than her and they
are Might and Power {won caulfield cup by 7
lengths and leading all the way and won the
Melbourne cup}how many horses can win these
2 big races like this! and the other horses
are Kingston Town {what a super champion horse in his era} any one disagree please
welcome to post!
cheers!