Thoughts on this one?

[Sahasastar]

Do these results sound okay?

No filters applied to system I reviewed this morning so surely this one won't crash and burn like all the others did!!

Over 40 weeks:
Selections 195
Return $299 (best final odds of IASF or NSWTab, top fluc would be + $40)
Winners 44
Other places 46 (26 2nds, 20 3rds)
No places 105
Strike Rate 22.56%
APW $6.80
Top 3 Collects $13.60, $11.60, $11.30
Top 3 Other Places $12.00, $12.00, $11.00

Does not involve betting moves or after the fact selections, I have my selection in the morning after scratchings.

Would anyone put there hardearned on this? Or wait a little while longer?
Am a little worried about the winners to places ratio..

Thoughts much appreciated.

[partypooper]

sahasastar, looks pretty good to me, nearly 200 selections is a fairly good trial. My only thought is as long as some part of the selection process doesn't involve something that can change, e.g. Must be in some tipsters top 3 , or ridden by a particular Jockey etc. I mean the tipster might have gone through a purple patch, same with the Jockey etc. Otherwise I say go for with a limited bank and have some fun.

[michaelg]

They are very impressive results.

As for the "relatively" small sample of selections and short period of testing:- a very well known horse racing publication often tests their for-sale systems over a period of approximately two years in which there are several hundred selections. Then when sold, the system performs poorly. I have read more than once that when the rules are tested by a buyer with a large data base the results thrown up by the data base disagree markedly and unfavourably with those listed in the publication's sales blurb.

So I would say the system certainly has potential, and I would not be worried by the number of selections, 195 is more than enough for me, unless of course there are factors in the rules that Partypooper has described.

[captain charger]

Sahasta,have you tried 1x4,win and place? Cheers.

[breadman]

i think you should share it will the forum and get all of our opinions! hehehe

[partypooper]

Captain Charger, somewhere amongst my many posts you will find me knocking the idea of 1x4 (or 1x anything) my thinking at the time was that you would still have to show a profit at levels AND a profit at levels for the place.
However since then I've looked at it closer and can see a real advantage when encountering losing runs, i.e. say your using a % of the bank, just for arguments sake 2%, so you would divide that $figure by 5 and place 1x4, never decreasing, the advantage comes in because although you may have long losining runs for the win, the place component can carry you through to the next run of successes (wins)
so I think I am converted! though I'm doing more research to see the optium mix, i.e. 1x1, 1x2, 1x3, etc etc

Anyone else with thoughts on this one?

[Merriguy]

Party,

Somewhere -- a long way back, perhaps two or three years ago -- there was an indication by someone (if I remember rightly) claiming that 1:5 was the best ratio.

I have often thought of that when various people indicate 1:4 is the way to go. I'm almost certain that figures were given to back up the claim. I have made some effort to find the thread through the good 'search' facility on the forum; but it is hard to narrow things down. 'Ratio for a place' or the like just returns too many possibilities.

I'm pretty sure that the figures showed that straight up returned the best of all, as you would expect; but, besides the thoughts that you gave above, there is the very real 'psychological benefit' (for want of another term) in receiving a return on a regular basis --- for myself anyway.

[Merriguy]

Found it! The post/thread that I was referring to is
http://forums.ozmium.com.au/showthread.php?t=2200&highlight=Place+ratio
The whole thread is worth reading.
See post #11 of this thread.

[crash]

I remember reading a US article about ew ratio betting. The best optimum ratio according to the article was 1x6 ew. I'm not aying it is the optimum, but it seems to pan out OK. I use it when not betting straight win and they are the times when my win selections all seem to be coming 2nd or 3rd. for long enough to cause serious doubts about my handicapping ability rather than the correct answer, the horses just lost due to events that can't be handicapped.

Knowing the above intellectually however, doesn't help. Anxiety results and THAT can lead to poor handicapping and or bad bets being made, which supplies more 'evidence'. that there is something wrong with the selection process. A good time to switch to systems or place betting for awhile until chance runs it's wicked course and equilibrium returns.

Place or ratio ew betting keeps the losses down during bad times even though we might still be losing. With a small win component in our place bets [1x6] it bumps up our place return when the inevitable win[s] come up for our place only horses, especially when we are now place betting, winners seem to come up all the time :-).

The 1/6 win component makes a very small difference when we only collect for the place. At 1x5 or worse, [1x4 or even 1x3] we are looking at a more substantial loss to our place divvy and it's the place we will [mostly] be getting our collects from during the hard times when our win bets are suffering a serious bout of 'seconds'.. Alternatively, ratio betting full time has it's advantages and especially for 'percentage of pocket' punters [most of us] who do not have a punting bank and the luxury of $20 bets that are only 1 or 2% of bank and enduring a spell of seconds is very hard to take [or afford] indeed. I have been using the 1x6 approach for the last week exclusively due to a bad patch of 'seconds'.

Well we all know what Murphy does to us in these situations and I'm kicking myself, but will keep off the win bets for awhile yet. Below are the results of Murphy's law for the past week:

[have used stab prices as my NT acount prices have lots of cents in them]
All bet 1x6 unit ratio ew.
Sund. 14th May. Geelong.
r4/4 Loanhead $2.50w $1.30p
r6/11 Bush Ballad $1.60p
r7/10 Manhattan Treasure $1.60p
r8/4 Like It Is $4.20w $1.70p
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mon. 15th Pakenham
r9/9 Cristelon
Bathurst
r4/2 Fame And Finesse
r6/4 Goldengate Bridge
r8/5 Canamble $5.70w $2.20p
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tues. 16th Stawell
r6/4 Investments $5.30w $2p
r7/13 Vanity Quay $3.70p
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wed.. 17th. Werribee
r3/4 Aria Diva $1.90p
r5/1 Celtic Bloom $3.70w $1.50p
r6/2 Gallantree $4w $1.70p

Eagle Farm
r6/2 United
r7/10 Partridge $4.10p
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thurs.18th. Ballarat
r5/7 Questjeune
r6/4 Incinerator $1.70p

Hawksbury
r9/7 Wolfman Jack $4.80w $1.70p
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fri.19th. Scone
r4/6 Sutton King $2.50w $1.40p
r7/8 Saxon

Kyeton
3.10pm
r6/8 Foreign Scandal $1.80p
r7/4 Shahana $7.60w $2.10p
r8/10 Brethren
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dosn't take rocket science to work out win only bets here would have had me in very nice gravy. Good old Murphy:-)

[Crackone]

Hi it depends if you want to win $$ on every bet (we all do) or get your money back if your selection runs a place eg. 1x3 if your selection is paying $1.35 a place maybe 1x4 1x5 1x6 if you would like to win.

[Chrome Prince]

a very well known horse racing publication often tests their for-sale systems over a period of approximately two years in which there are several hundred selections. Then when sold, the system performs poorly. I have read more than once that when the rules are tested by a buyer with a large data base the results thrown up by the data base disagree markedly and unfavourably with those listed in the publication's sales blurb.


Correct Michael.

Also the systems are often based on "hazard results", one or two bolters, which is the reason they will always fail!

[manygeese]

If you have a system where the selections appear from a formula, if the formula is any good, the only thing that makes sense is win only.

Plausibly such a system doesn't exist.

Crash, whoever you is, you say it right about ratios keeping you stable when using race day judgement. I used 1 to 5 today (one bet it came second) but could not work out what differentiation you were making between 1 - 5 and 1 - 6.

The 1/6 win component makes a very small difference when we only collect for the place. At 1x5 or worse, [1x4 or even 1x3] we are looking at a more substantial loss to our place divvy .....

1 to 5 is 1.20 the place to break even. 1 to 6 is 1.16. When you get down to that level, you aren't talking value and probably aren't betting.

What you are trying to do with ratio betting is keeping your self happy when they run second or third. The higher the ratio though, (if you are betting a percenatge of a bank) the more you cut into your profit when you jag a winner.

[La Mer]

1 to 5 is 1.20 the place to break even. 1 to 6 is 1.16. When you get down to that level, you aren't talking value and probably aren't betting.

What you are trying to do with ratio betting is keeping your self happy when they run second or third. The higher the ratio though, (if you are betting a percenatge of a bank) the more you cut into your profit when you jag a winner.

I think that the ratio Crash is referring to is 1 unit the win & 5 or 6 units the place - it has little to do with taking $1.16 or $1.20 the place.

There are many place bettors, ones you never hear of, that make a nice little earner out of what they do & that's why it is still the second most popular way of betting.

[crash]

..........................snip.........................................
Place or ratio ew betting keeps the losses down during bad times even though we might still be losing. With a small win component in our place bets [1x6] it bumps up our place return when the inevitable win[s] come up for our place only horses, especially when we are now place betting, winners seem to come up all the time :-). .......................snip......................

[have used stab prices as my NT account prices have lots of cents in them]
All bet 1x6 unit ratio ew.
Sund. 14th May. Geelong.
r4/4 Loanhead $2.50w $1.30p [10x60ew:25+78=103 or 70pl.only=91]
r6/11 Bush Ballad $1.60p [96 / 112]
r7/10 Manhattan Treasure $1.60p [96 / 112]
r8/4 Like It Is $4.20w $1.70p [144 / 119]

Totals: $10x60ew = $439 / $70p only = $434 Outlay removed: Profit +159 / +154
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mon. 15th Pakenham
r9/9 Cristelon
Bathurst
r4/2 Fame And Finesse
r6/4 Goldengate Bridge
r8/5 Canamble $5.70w $2.20p [189 / 154]
Totals 189 / 154 Outlay removed: Profit -91 / -126
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tues. 16th Stawell
r6/4 Investments $5.30w $2p [173 / 120]
r7/13 Vanity Quay $3.70p [222 / 259]
Totals 395 / 379 Outlay removed: Profit +255 / +239
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wed.. 17th. Werribee
r3/4 Aria Diva $1.90p [114 / 133]
r5/1 Celtic Bloom $3.70w $1.50p [127 / 105]
r6/2 Gallantree $4w $1.70p [142 / 119]

Eagle Farm
r6/2 United
r7/10 Partridge $4.10p [246 /287]
Totals 629 / 644 Outlay removed: Profit +279 / +294
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thurs.18th. Ballarat
r5/7 Questjeune
r6/4 Incinerator $1.70p [102 / 119]

Hawksbury
r9/7 Wolfman Jack $4.80w $1.70p [150 / 119]
Totals 252 / 238 Outlay removed: Profit +42 / +28
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fri.19th. Scone
r4/6 Sutton King $2.50w $1.40p [109 / 98]
r7/8 Saxon

Kyeton
3.10pm
r6/8 Foreign Scandal $1.80p [108 / 126]
r7/4 Shahana $7.60w $2.10p [202 / 147]
r8/10 Brethren
Totals 419 / 371 Outlay removed: Profit +65 / +21

Overall profit from 10X60 ew +709 from 70pl. only +610
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dosn't take rocket science to work out win only bets here would have had me in very nice gravy. Good old Murphy:-)


Mannygeese,

What I should have done with this previous post was to demonstrate the effects of 1x6 ratio betting [say $10 to win x $60 for the place]. So I have added to the above the results of both straight place bet for $70 and also $10 x $60 ew bet. As you can see I was better off with the 1x6 ratio ew bet on all days except one, when Partridge got up for $$4.10p [if it have won, I would certainly have been glad of the the win component!].

A 1x5 or 1x4 ratio is better only for a high win rate, which generally would not be expected in place betting. I haven't worked out the returns for 1x5 or 1x4 ratios for the above week, but the win rate was higher than expected [Murphy's law :-)]. Conversely, if I had a very low win rate [say half the above winners], a 1x5 or 1x4 ratio would be eating too much of the place return. I have messed around with other ratios, but for me personally, I find the 1x6 ratio as mentioned in the article I read, pretty spot on.

Cheers.

[manygeese]

Guess the preferred ratio depends on what price and strike rate is being acheived but the point is win betting is where the money is.

Betting 70 dollars the win on your figures

14/05 +189 v 159 or 154

Mon. 15th +119 v -91 or -126

Wed.. 17th. + 196 v +279 / +294

Thurs.18th. + 126 v +42 / +28

Fri.19th. + 357 v +65 / +21

10X60 ew +709 from 70pl. only +610

Profit from 70 the win = 987

If you can pick and bet horses that are showing a profit when the winning post is arrived at, from what I can see you are always better off on the nose without any place component at all. And as your place ratio goes up, down comes your profit.

Where a place component comes into its own is keeping the interior of your head smooth in between winners as I think you well pointed out before. That's the way I see and would think any difference between 6 to 1 and 5 to 1 would be marginal.

Anyway I'm just starting up as a will I or wont I punter and have decided upon 1 to 5 and am pretty much looking for, dunno, above $1.50 a place and see if I can lose the lot from there.

[crash]

Another advantage with ew ratio betting for 'percentage of pocket' punters is that they can usually afford to bet larger amounts per bet. If a punter only has say $100 in their pocket betting money for a Sat. of punting, it is very unlikely that punter will have $20 win bets. 5 'outs' and their finished, so the punter would probably be having $10 win bets [or even $5 bets, if they like a lot of action].

A punter is more likely to risk [say] $3x18 ew bets than $20 win bets because the potential SR for a return is a lot higher with the former. That is probably the reason straight ew bets are still so popular, even though they are a very bad bet [50/50% ew] When a horse places, which mostly is what happens, there is no profit and often a loss [place paying less than $2], but there is a better SR for this bet than a straight win bet and that is all that seems to matter.
The fact that their is usually no profit either when a straight ew bet places, seems to slip their minds. They are basically waiting on a win to make any profit from a bet. They may as well have straight win bets for half the cost of the 50/50% ew bet [they would get twice as many bets for starters]. It's the lower SR for the straight win bet they don't like. Logic [or maths] doesn't get a look in, because for a straight ew bet there isn't any !

Realistically, $3 x $18 ew [for convenience, $5 X 25, $5X20 or even $5X15] bets for most punters gives them a significantly better chance of being in front at the end of day than straight win bets or 50/50% ew bets. If their average win SR for 50/50% ew bets was high enough to turn a profit [very doubtful], it's high enough to have straight out win bets for a far better result.

[KennyVictor]

So let me try to paraphrase what you've written crash, correct me if I'm wrong (you know you want to :-).
1. If you're in the punt to win money take win bets.
2. If you're trying to cut your losses take a place component.
3. The more nervous (less confident) you are the higher the proportion of the place bet.

To me, and I'm sure I and others have said it before, win bets and place bets are two entirely different animals. You make your selections to place win bets or you make them to make place bets, and you make the selections differently depending whether you are targeting win or place bets. Each way bets in any proportion are for people who are just playing or who would like to bet to win but either lack the ability, confidence or bottle to go for broke.

KV

[crash]

Well no Kenny, there is nothing really to correct there in those 3 points, as it's your point of view of the mosh pit. Your point 3 is particularly useful for 'jaded' win punters who need a break after enduring a bad run and since my initial post was the reasoning I [initially] had a go at place betting only some time ago as a first effort at it in my life [had a thread on the other forum page going for over 100 races and came out about square for the place but profit for the win only if I had been having win bets, which I wasn't]. It bored me to death.

This time around I added a win component to the place bet [1X6] and have found it profitable, anxiety free and a good rest from win only betting. As for your [brilliant] insight into the obvious: 'win bets and place bets are two entirely different animals' [there is a difference between a win bet and a place bet], yes OK I agree:-)

Your last assertion, well there might be a few full time place bettors here who have no interest in win betting who might strongly disagree, but who am I to stand in the way of letting you shoot your mouth off and put them down as pretend punters or win bet wannabees with no bottle!!??

[KennyVictor]

I thought I was going to go through a whole crash reply without some form of abuse or misinterpretation of what I said. But thank the lord for the last paragraph.
I'm not dissing the place betters if you read my post carefully, it's the each way betters I was pouring scorn on (or shooting my mouth off about if you prefer). Place betting is a perfectly valid strategy (So is each way for fun I suppose).
Dissapointingly though it seems we agree on most points here. I remember the days when a passionate discussion with your good self was easy to start. :)

KV

[crash]

Yes, I miss those days too Kenny. But the joint has become far more ......hmmmm..,....'politicaly correct'[?] for a couple of old tossers to go toe to toe nowadays. I've already had a couple of 'holidays' and would rather choose when and where I go too myself .

Still, your point 1 is a bit 'rough' around the edges. Actually most punters are on the punt because they are punting tragics, to 'win money' for most punters, is at best a bit of 'convenient' junkie logic.

[PullTheWhip]

Personally, I think the point earlier was the best one, someone said that "win only was easily the most profitable". Seems pretty clear what's long term the best strategy then, you just gotta have the cahones to stick out a losing run. And if you can't, well, there's a saying about heat and kitchens and stuff.

[La Mer]

Personally, I think the point earlier was the best one, someone said that "win only was easily the most profitable". Seems pretty clear what's long term the best strategy then, you just gotta have the cahones to stick out a losing run. And if you can't, well, there's a saying about heat and kitchens and stuff.

There are some misguided posts on the advantages of place betting & this is just another one. Betting styles are a horses for courses situation - one size does not fit all.

Although I've been a Dutch book punter, a sometimes win punter & had some success as a lay punter on Betfair, I've been a proud place punter for a number of years & that's where most of my profits come from year in, year out.

I had six bets on Saturday, five place bets & one lay bet. All proved successful. Had those place bets been win bets then there would have been only one winner paying $2.20 and a winning day would have been a losing one.

Win bettors are entitled to the extra benefits that style of betting can achieve, but 'us' place punters are a different lot altogether, we like a quiet life with the returns rolling in on a regular basis.

I'm after only one thing & that's NOT POT or ROI or even the glory of picking a long priced winner, I'm after a profit, money in the kick, that can provide me with a lifestyle that meets my needs - place punting provides me with exacty that.

[Shaun]

Here is somthing to think about, if you are a person that is having trouble with losing runs but have a profitable selection system try paying yourself a wage each week no matter what happens.

Work out your profit on turnover for 12 months then divide this into 52 portion and pay yourself 50% of this amount each week, this is much better than win/place betting and you will still see money coming in during the slow times.

[Shaun]

La Mar

there is a difference between place betting and what has been offered up in here, yes place betting can be a very good earner but i feel if you are going to have it eachway you need to run seperate banks and regard it as a seperate bet.

[La Mer]

Here is somthing to think about, if you are a person that is having trouble with losing runs but have a profitable selection system try paying yourself a wage each week no matter what happens.

Work out your profit on turnover for 12 months then divide this into 52 portion and pay yourself 50% of this amount each week, this is much better than win/place betting and you will still see money coming in during the slow times.

That's good advice Shaun, so long as there is a confidence that the losing run is only temporary. I've been doing similar for many years now, just drawing down a 'wage' each fortnight (in my case) irrespective of how I've gone on the punt in the preceding period. Punters really need to think long-term but most appear to take a short-term view - the 'get-out stakes' mentatlity.

[La Mer]

La Mar, there is a difference between place betting and what has been offered up in here, yes place betting can be a very good earner but i feel if you are going to have it eachway you need to run seperate banks and regard it as a seperate bet.

You are probably right Shaun, but I've never been an each-way punter so wouldn't really know. But I do know that many win punters think their way is the holy grail of the punt - got news from them, it ain't.

[KennyVictor]

There are some misguided posts on the advantages of place betting & this is just another one. Betting styles are a horses for courses situation - one size does not fit all.
(snip)
I had six bets on Saturday, five place bets & one lay bet. All proved successful. Had those place bets been win bets then there would have been only one winner paying $2.20 and a winning day would have been a losing one.
Paragraphs like the second one here are what make misguided posts methinks. If you had wanted to have five win bets I'll wager (taking an each way hedge of course) that you would have picked your horses differently. In which case the "Had those place bets been win bets" is a silly thing to say.

KV

[La Mer]

Paragraphs like the second one here are what make misguided posts methinks. If you had wanted to have five win bets I'll wager (taking an each way hedge of course) that you would have picked your horses differently. In which case the "Had those place bets been win bets" is a silly thing to say.KV

Sorry, Kenny V. it is you that is misguided for even suggesting that someone should change a winning strategy - if it ain't broke why fix it. It ain't & I won't, it's as simple as that. I would not have picked my horses differently as the way I pick 'em is the way I pick 'em & it's been that way now for many (successful) years.

Misguided comments like yours are not needed. :-)

[Shaun]

Lets just agree that we all have our different styles and i can guarantee we can all learn a bit from each other.

[KennyVictor]

With the greatest of respect I think you misunderstand me. I would not suggest that you change your selection strategy merely that this selection strategy is aimed at making place bets. Thus to conjecture what would have happened had you placed win bets instead is not of any value. Maybe I'm wrong and you have a magic pin which would have stabbed the newspaper in exactly the same place whichever type of bets you had made. But I think not, you strike me as a successful punter who would tailor his selections to his bets.
Why can't anyone on this forum understand me? Is it only misinterpretation of other peoples posts that keeps us going? Am I an imbecile posing as a very clever person in the disguise of an idiot?

Curse you Shaun you've interposed a message between mine and the culprit that instigated it. More misunderstanding on the way.
Ah well, it keeps a thread going.

[PullTheWhip]

Psychology is very important when it comes to punting, because you have to be able to stick with a method, through thick and thin, and if you're punting a method with only a 10% strike rate, the thin's will be quite thick, if you follow.

So, in that respect the great place punters of the forum are right - you no doubt sleep more soundly than us rugged, dashing win punters, however from my point of view the psychology of MY punting would mean that were I to bet the place I would not get the thrill from punting the way I do from win betting.

Case in point - I backed Derringer on Saturday. Had him third selection, priced at $13, he was upwards of $40 on the totes, he was a big overlay. I cannot bet each way, so even at $8 the place (or whatever he was) I just backed him to win. Had the protest been dismissed, I'd have done my money --- but was fully prepared for that, knowing that lots of 40/1 winners will come along, and that lots of 40/1 bets will run second. As it was, the protest was upheld - I MAXIMISED my profit because I did not hedge.

[La Mer]

With the greatest of respect I think you misunderstand me. I would not suggest that you change your selection strategy merely that this selection strategy is aimed at making place bets. Thus to conjecture what would have happened had you placed win bets instead is not of any value. Maybe I'm wrong and you have a magic pin which would have stabbed the newspaper in exactly the same place whichever type of bets you had made. But I think not, you strike me as a successful punter who would tailor his selections to his bets.
Why can't anyone on this forum understand me? Is it only misinterpretation of other peoples posts that keeps us going? Am I an imbecile posing as a very clever person in the disguise of an idiot?

Well, Kenny have a good luck in the mirror & if you see an imbecile posing as a very clever person in the disguise of an idiot shake hands with yourself, you've found out who you really are. What's that old saying, if it looks like duck, walks like a duck & quacks like a duck, it's a duck. :-)

But jokes aside, I don't think anyone on this forum thinks that in all honesty that you not a thinking person & your views are not respected, if not always agreed with.

There is an old saying, "Pick 'em to win, back 'em a place" & that is very much the heart of my selection strategy. Actually, it's a rating process & the place selections I referred to earlier were all rated to win, e.g. top-rated, but backed for a place. In fact, I rated about eleven races on Saturday but bet in five of them because either there was a lack value or for some other reason, such as the top-rated horse being a backmarker which is normally a no-no for me.

So your assumption that the selection strategy is aimed at place betting is not correct - it's my style of betting that is aimed at place betting, not the selection process.

[KennyVictor]

So your assumption that the selection strategy is aimed at place betting is not correct - it's my style of betting that is aimed at place betting, not the selection process.I stand corrected.

[KennyVictor]

You should not only stand corrected, but sit correctly, too. Good for your posture.Posturing, now that's something we see a lot of on here.

[crash]

.............snip........................
Why can't anyone on this forum understand me? Is it only misinterpretation of other peoples posts that keeps us going? Am I an imbecile posing as a very clever person in the disguise of an idiot?

Curse you Shaun you've interposed a message between mine and the culprit that instigated it. More misunderstanding on the way.
Ah well, it keeps a thread going.

HA HA Kenny, told you the dangers of shooting your mouth off about place punters !!! I understand you but I tell you what, La Mer is definitely onto something in what he says. 'A steady earn' basically. Out go a lot of up and downs. The ups with the straight win, sure but there are also a lot of downs to balance them out.

It's pretty hard to hit a long run of outs on the place wagon if your a fair handicapper and make wise bets In the $2.50 to $7 the win range, the odds for the place are overall a very good bet in that price range.

Today I had [tipped in other forum page by me]:
Albury
r3/3 Waveband [late scr.]
r4/5 Warby Gold $6.90w $2p
r6/4 Written Habit $2p

10x60 bet. Ok 70w Warby gold would have been good for $483 return [less OL], but with Written Habit the return for my bets were $389[less OL], but if Warby Gold had placed for win only bets[?] A big Zero and down $140. Yesterday I had 3 bets for only 1 place, but at least I had a place collect which makes up for what I missed out on today for the win. I could get to live with that type of trade off. It certainly involves a lot less anxiety which is something that 'percentage of pocket' punters could sure do with [not everyone has a punting bank to soldier on through the outs of win betting and that's probably most punters].

[KennyVictor]

I'm not dissing the place betters if you read my post carefully, it's the each way betters I was pouring scorn on
HA HA Kenny, told you the dangers of shooting your mouth off about place punters !!! Crash, I appreciate you're old and that people's attention span decreases as they age BUT. I've already corrected you on who I was shooting my mouth off about. If you have the wit to find your computer and log onto this site you must have enough brain cells to remember something that you were corrected on only a few posts before so I can only assume you are being perverse (something that can also increase with age it appears).
Now remember and repeat after me. Place punters GOOD, Each way punters SILLY. Again -- Place punters GOOD, Each way punters SILLY.

What??? You've fallen asleep again?? Crash wake up - pay attention.

[crash]

[QUOTE=KennyVictor]Crash, I appreciate you're old and that people's attention span decreases as they age QUOTE]

You might have a 'little' insight into older codgers Kenny, but we certainly have a LOT more insight into how the world and the people in it, turn [we've been on it for a lot more spins].
I read your original post very clearly and understood what you were saying but human reaction is often a response not to what they see or read, but what they think they see or have read. In that regard little tike, my original warning [without criticism of your view] was spot on. I was warning you about what place punters would 'think' you wrote [they also have the odd each way bet I'm sure] because of the way you worded it.

The 2 pages of 'response' was not mine, so your barking up the wrong tree with your [in vain] pleas to be understood. So there is no use stamping your foot at me young fella !! 8-)

[partypooper]

Can't understand how I missed this post b4, as my main betting is for the place, though like la Mer, any horse that I bet on has actually been "rated" as the winner as a pre-requisite! I'm in profit over 3 years (nearly) but as La Mer knows from my e-mail this is NOT the whole story!! but suffice to say, the MOST important thing is to obtain the BEST return possible, this is what makes the difference between winning or losing (it's THAT close) My plan does show a profit for the win as well ,so EW would also be ok, but as someone said it's that ability to sleep that appeals to the place bettor!

Just realised that I had replied to this one b4, anyway that's my thoughts!