citicash (Casino Black Jack analyser)

[fifi]

Has any body got this black Jack analyser from citicash in Brisbane. they want around $9000 for the system and offer 100% money back guarantee. they also claim 62% or better return. They say the system counts cards and gives reccommendations to hit stand, insurance etc. It can only be played with casinos on the net. what does anybody think
thankyou

[Mr. Logic]

I'm not aware that online casinos play blackjack with say 6 or 8 decks. Anyone would be able to keep a record of every card played at their own leisure and beat them!!
The games are effectively played with an unlimited number of decks which means card counting is useless.

Has anybody else signed up for this??? Does it work?? Is this thing legitimate?

- Please help

[becareful]

My suggestion is stay away! As Mr Logic correctly pointed out card counting is totally useless against an online casino as they use unlimited decks that are randomly drawn (so the equivalent of a continuous shuffle in a real casino). If you want to play online there are various free tutorials around that will teach you how to play optimal strategy which means you should only have around a 1% disadvantage - you will still lose in the longrun but it would take you a long time to waste $9000 if you stick to the low value games and just have fun.

If you want to win at Blackjack in the longrun your only option is to learn a card counting system and play at real casinos - but I have been told it is not nearly as glamorous as you would think - a lot of hard work for relatively low returns and if you do start making a good living more than likely you will be banned from every casino you visit.

[pepsi4]

I actually contacted a casino requesting how many decks in a shoe they use, and they replied saying 4 decks. The casino's don't really want you to know how many decks they use, but if you request the information they will tell you.
I don't understand how it is possible to use unlimited decks, where did you find this information??
Thank you for your reply.

[becareful]

Pepsi4,

I am assuming you are talking about a real casino - ie. one where you sit down at a table with a real dealer. They generally use either 4, 6 or 8 decks and yes you can find out from each one how many they use (the other important thing for a card counter is how many cards on average are left in the shoe when they reshuffle).

However the original post related to a program for use at on-line casinos (for obvious reasons no real casinos are going to let you sit at a table with a laptop running some card counting software). Online casinos do not work with real decks of cards - they simply have a random number generator to determine the cards you are dealt. In simple terms the random number generator selects a number between 1 and 52 and that is the card you get (eg. 1 might be the Ace of Hearts, etc). Each time a card is dealt it is selected at random with no regard to the previous cards so in theory you could have the same card dealt 10 times in a row. This is what I mean by unlimited decks - because each card is selected randomly it is equivalent to dealing cards out of an unlimited number of decks and therefore counting the previously dealt cards is totally useless.

[pepsi4]

I am aware you were talking about an online casino. But by you saying there are unlimited decks is very unfair and illegal - nobody would gamble online if this was the case - dont you think! It changes the game of blackjack to a guessing game... where did you obtain your facts???? Just email a casino and ask them if this is true - I just don't think it is possible.

[becareful]

Whether they use 4, 6, 8 or an unlimited number of decks is pretty much irrelevant. The important point is that they effectively shuffle after every hand so any card counting is totally useless. If they didn't then you could sit in the comfort of your own home with a pen and paper (no need for a $9000 computer program) and count cards all day.

Yes it does make it totally a guessing game but lots of people apparantly still donate their money to the online casinos! As to unfair and illegal - not really - some "real" casinos now use CSMs (Continuous Shuffle Machines) to defeat card counters.

Of course there have been numerous reports of online casinos using rigged blackjack games (ie. they manipulate the cards to make it more likely for you to bust) which is totally unfair and illegal but, unfortunately, quite hard to regulate and prevent.

My advice is avoid online casinos like the plague unless you are only playing for fun (ie. no money involved). If you want to play for money then go to a real casino where at least you can see if anything dodgy is going on with the dealing! If you want to make money from card counting then you need to learn to do it properly and then practice, practice, practice and then practice some more.

[Mr J]

I'm coming from BJ...

Counting (along with shuffle tracking, hustling comps etc) is the only way to gain an edge in BJ. This edge is very small, depending on the rules and conditions (#decks, heat, #players etc).

With online casinos, nearly all have unlimited decks, that are shuffled after every round. You CANNOT count these.
A few offer limited deck games, but penetration is terrible, making worthless, as better conditions are available down the road.

However, there is a way to gain an advantage online, through hustling bonuses. This is the least risky way to make money at BJ, but it won't last forever, and the conditions are getting worse (though still quite profitable).

Your system is likely a scam. The edge you would get if you were Rainman or used a Casey computer wouldn't even achieve that %.

Don't think you can make money without the hard work. There's *almost* no such thing as easy money :wink:

[maxhugen]

BJ's far too much hard work - and boring as all hell.

I'll stick with the AFL for a tidy profit, a small amount of work, and several beers!

[Capn]

Beers and profit sounds good and could do some work i spose. How much did you make?

[maxhugen]

Well I was a total rookie last year, but as I made a bit, I lose that status I guess this year. Percentage profit was a bit over 200. But I had to do a bit more work to get it.

[Capn]

you mean as in 200 percent?

[Mr J]

ah hugie....you post everywhere

Now I see your've got something against BJ...the post on the other topic makes sense then.

Sports betting is better IMO. No heat, less risk, better advantage etc.

Making 100k/yr is easier off sports than BJ...I just started BJ first, made alot of it and am looking at SB...

Bonus hustling is easy money, easier than SB. Easiest money out there. I've never had a prob getting paid, most people pro's have tho

not hard to make an easy 1k a day....just have to change ID (computer, cards, addy email etc) every now and then.

havent actually counted much this year, its long work, and starting to get too repetitive

maost people fail at counting & bj, just watch out next time you generalize pro's first....

[Neil]

Pepsi4,
I wouldn't touch online casinos. Unlimited decks and no guarantee that the card distribution from those unlimited decks won't be rigged.
Online casinos will not play with a set number of decks unless there is a "shuffle" after nearly every hand - which is the same as playing with unlimited decks.
If an online casino used say, six decks which were dealt until say one deck remained players would be able to keep exact records of every card dealt. The "casino" would be wiped out.
A very small percentage of card counters can make good money playing blackjack. But card counting is like playing golf - many people can play golf, but not many play very well.
You have to be able to count the cards exactly, otherwise your play will be incorrect. You have to be able to have conversations with other players, the dealer/supervisor/pit boss while playing and counting and so it goes on....
I was able to regularly play at Crown Casino for years and hundreds of hours due to disguising my play and appearing to be just a mug player.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Neil on 2003-03-13 10:25 ]</font>

[Mr J]

Neil, cheating is not nearly as rampant as stated. The people who make these statements are either a) Losers, who are looking for a reason to explain their bad runs, or b) people with little experience.

I have played at alot of online casino's lately. I choose the bigname software (that have their Random Number Generators reviewed. I personally have had no problems getting paid, however most Bonus Hustlers have at some point.

That said, BHing is more profitable than card counting in Australia. There are around 1400 online casinos, where as there are only 13 casinos in Australia. Half of these 13 cannot be attacked reguarly due to size or conditions.

Still, the original poster was commenting on this 'system', not whether to attack the online casinos. IMO, this system is a total ripoff and is trying to scam your money.

BTW Neil, Bhing is very low risk, gives an attractive return, and has many more opportunities than CC in Aus.

[pepsi4]

Who's the best person to contact if I have been involved in a scam????

[Mr J]

Scammed by who? An online casino? A seller of an 'Unbeatable System'?

Was it based in Aus or overseas?

[Mr J]

Since your earlier posts are about online casinos, I'll assume this is who scammed you.

It depends where the casino is based. If it's a 3rd world country (likely somewhere in the carribbean), then you are really at their mercy. If it's in a western country, appeal to the gaming commission that regualates that area (or country).

Contact your credit card company and inform them, they might be able to get your deposit back.

Keep contacting the casino (don't be abusive), asking if the money has been sent.

I hope you also kept a record of transactions with them (or you REALLY are at their mercy).

Basically no matter what you do will take up alot of time, and cause alot of inconveniences.

If it's a small amount, you may not want to even bother.

You should check out other peoples experiences with the casinos in future (either sites that review casinos, or post on a board like BJ21.com or bjfonline.com)

There are alot of dodgy casinos out there that cause quite a few problems (mainly about signup bonuses). You just have to do your homework and find the ones that will pay you (but I guess you can never be 100% sure they will).

No such thing as a free lunch, and the catch with BHing is sometimes they won't pay you (they normally will, but it may takes a VERY long time, so don't use your rent money :wink:

[pepsi4]

I was scammed by Citicash.... they don't return my calls

[Mr J]

Go to the media. Find other people who were scammed etc.

Basically make life miserable and shatter the reputations of these guys who ripped you off.

Take it to court? It will cost MUCH less if you find a number of others that were scammed.

Did you read the fine print? These guys may have covered themselves legally, no matter how bad they ripped you/others off.

You might even bring the police into it (I don't think they'd go for it).

Try bringing the ICCC into it. They might have some influence.

I still think the media or courts are your best bets.

Visit a lawyer and see if you have a case. If you do, you should pursue it, if not I'd like to see you put these SOB's on ACA (a current affair).

Did the product cost 8k? You might want to weigh up the costs of any avenue you pursue.

If something sounds too good to be true, it probally is. Remember 'buyer beware', do your research before throwing money around, etc. Not critizing you, just that there are alot of greedy SOBs out there. It pays to be cautious.

I really hope it does work out for you.

[becareful]

Pepsi,

You could try going to the Consumer Affairs department in your state (or Department of Fair Trading - depends where you are as to what they are called). Probably wont be able to help but it wont cost anything and at least your complaint will be registered - if there are enough complaints or if what they are doing is deemed illegal they might prosecute on your behalf.

Good luck.