Online Casinos

[Dude]

I cant believe the unfair Terms & Condition all online casinos seem to operate under.
Im talking about the 'Min Pagering Requirement' where you must ussually gamble 5-10 times your initial deposit & bonus before you can withdraw any winnings !!!

Can you imagine the uproar if the TAB tried to do that !!

Does anyone know of any casino who do not operate under this clause ???

Dude

[becareful]

Dude,

I could be wrong (I don't use online casinos) but I think you will find the Minimum Wagering part only applies to any bonus they give you. eg. if you deposit $200 and they give you $100 bonus and then you win another $200 then your account balance would show $500. If you have not met the minimum bet requirement then the maximum you could withdraw would be $400 (ie. the balance less the $100 bonus). If you have met the minimum requirement then you can take the whole $500 out.

[TheDuck]

becareful is right. It only applies to bonuses (usually!).

For fun, see how much it costs to get your money out of the online casino.

[becareful]

Hey the Duck Man is back! Where you been Ducky?

[Mark]

Frozen I'd say.

[TheDuck]

Eh, what?

Actually, have been busy on a UK forum. I apologize for my absence. It must have been hard not having someone pestering everybody here with odd para-mathematical opinions.

:grin:

-Duck

[Mr J]

Most casino's, in fact require roughly 10-15 rimes the deposit AND bonus. Conditions online have seriously deterioated lately...

Still, it's not the conditions you must meet that's the hard part (they're easy, I make quite a bit of BH), it's getting your money (though I've had no trouble). Many places do rip you off, pick your casino's wisely.

[Mr J]

But, again like said before, these only apply to where bonuses apply (signup, payment bonus, monthly bonus etc).

[maxhugen]

Yo Jimmy

"Many places do rip you off, pick your casino's wisely."

Hey dude, the whole thing's a ripoff!

I corresponded with a pro gamble a few years back.

He'd tried just about everything I could think off - and then some.

"Mr X" lost a lot of money, but he does make a living. He settled into Blackjack. Last I heard, he was spending umpteen hours in casinos (no, NEVER online), trying to find new ones he wasn't banned in, adopting disguises....

Man, all he managed to do really was make an income, and he had an utterly boring life, long hours, no family coz he was always on the move....

No thanks!

But I do heartily recommend casinos to you all, as I own stock in a couple, and I need more mugs to boost my profits. he-he.

The Captain

[Capn]

geez your a bit of a downer. how about a taking an upper?

[Mr J]

Mr Hugen.....

It's not one big ripoff, I've made alot of money of the net. I've had no trouble receiving payments (many have, but these are people, like me, who have played at many net casinos, and a bad experience is inevitable).

I have also made alot of money off counting. What you say is total garbage. You might make some profit in stocks, but what you'd make from them is p!ssy change to me.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: quapi on 2003-03-13 09:49 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mr J on 2003-07-12 06:44 ]</font>

[becareful]

Mr J,

Was wondering if you had a list of online casinos you recommend for the "hit and run" strategy (ie. signing up for the bonus, playing the minimum requirement then withdrawing the lot)? Also would be interested to know if you just play basic strategy on BJ to try to collect the bonuses or if you use some sort of staking system to try to maximise the profit (with the risk of losing more if you hit a bad run)? If you would prefer not to discuss on an open forum you can email me at the tipping comp. email address (tipping@tlcbc.com.au).

Thanks,
Becareful

[Mr J]

Fine discussing here.

I use BS and sometimes *gulp*a progression.
The difference is online you start with an advantage, so with a decent bonus, a progression can be +EV for awhile. i.e.

At the Gamingclub, they are offering a $250 bonus for a $50 deposit on signup. That makes $300. Using a progression, build that up 100 or 200, make sure you have met the betting requirements and leave. (making a very nice profit)

Of course it's not that simple. That bonus can only be cashed out after $3750 has been wagered.

Still, for those who are just happy BHing in itself, forget the progression (it just gives you an inexpensive shot at quite a bit).

There are 2 schools of thought when it comes to bet size. These are:
a)bet minimum to lower risk to an unbelievable point

b)bet much higher (say 10%, or more) to maximise EV

With 'b', what must be remembered is that there are a limited number of bonuses out there, so in effect you are wasting many of them.

If you bet say $2-5 bets on a $100 deposit, which then gave you a bonus of $100, it is extrememly unlikely to bust. This will normally have to be wagered say 10 times the deposit$bonus (2k). That means 400-1000 hands would have to be played. Since most casino software deals 300-500 hands/hr, you will get through this quite quickly. As the casino edge is normally 0.5% at best (normally lower), this won't eat into your profits much at all.

I used to count (even counted SP21 at Star City, my home town!!), but BHing has (for awhile) been more profitable and reasonably risk-free.

As far as hit'n runs go, there's another reason I like to use progressions (only online, it's a customised version of D'Alembert, customised meaning it limits the impact of losing streaks and busting the bank). Progressions give you GREAT cover. A BH is likely to be pretty knowledgable of BJ, and VERY unlikely to use a progression. Normally I'll use it to double my deposit

e.g. deposit $100, get a bonus of $100,=$200, do $2 base bet to give 100 units, win 50 units. (for a $200 profit).

I do this about 3-5 times a day on average, with an average of $85 matching bonus. This means my wins are $170 on average.

Another advantage of a progression is it quickly eats up the total wagered requirement (VERY quickly).

Even with using a progression to make 50-100% extra on the deposit, there's less risk than CC. I'm not 21 yet, so my CC opportunites are limited. Still, the benefits of BHing can't be ignored (for the AP)

[Mr J]

As far as lists of casinos, there are many on the net. Go to the links page on this site. There are quite a few 'Bonuses' webpages there. Certainly enough to last a long time.

As far as reputable casinos, do your research, maybe post it up on BJ21.com and ask for other peoples experiences with the casino.

Generally, the main software companies, such as Microgaming, Boss Media etc won't rip you off. Still, do your homework, record all transactions. If someone does try and rip you off, forget about it (if they returned your deposit, if they did'nt, ask them to). Many BHers have wasted time trying to get winnings from a online casino scam. These are pretty extreme cases though.

Just because there's a few bad apples doesn't mean that the tree is 'bad'.

If your hitting alot of casino's, your likely to have a bad experience (think of it as a +count that just won't work for you).

Personally, I've never had a problem. The worst problem I've had is that I was paid by check instead of Neteller. Took an extra week.

DO keep a very detailed record of transactions though. Not just in case you get ripped off, but it's just good business to do so, as to keep track of your money.

[Capn]

i'm a bit of novice, i know about the progresions, but please what is BHanding, BS, EV?

[becareful]

Capn,

Correct me if I am wrong Mr J but I think the abbreviations are:

BH=Bonus Hunting
EV = Expected Value
BS=Basic Strategy (this refers to playing the correct stategy to minimise the house advantage in Blackjack - eg. if you have a pair of 9's you should split unless the dealer is showing a 7, 10 or A in which case you should stand). There are several online tutorials for learning basic strategy or you can have a look at the text version on the Smartgambler site:
http://www.smartgambler.com.au/casino/bjstrat.html

There is a useful table which summarises the strategy for most online casinos here:
http://www.blackjack.iinet.net.au/onlinebasictables.html


Mr J,
Don't suppose you would like to elaborate on your customised D'Alembert progression?

[becareful]

Mr J,

One other question if I may. What do you find is the best way to get money in and out of Casinos? I am assuming either Netteller or Paypal (or one of the new competitors to these) - is one better than the other (ie more accepted) or do you need both? Or do you use some other method?

Thanks

[Mr J]

Correct on the abreviations.

I'm pretty limited in the services I can choose, because I don't have a credit card.

I personally use Neteller, and have had great experience with them. All transactions have been pretty fast (sometimes a casino has payed, and it's been deposited to Neteller the same day).

I'd use an online 'banking' service over a credit card -you do get the fees.

I have heard from a few people Paypal is better than Neteller, however from what I've seen more casino's support (and prefer) Neteller.

As far the progression goes...(you know mathematically they don't provide an edge...just making sure).

Basically the problem with the D'Alembert system is you will slowly go up your betting ramp (bets get larger), causing greater fluctuation. Eventually, you'll hit a negative swing that you won't recover from.

Using a 55 unit BR (up to 10th bet), will often cause you to bust on all but short sessions. So instead I use a 100-200 units BR. Now my betting ramp is much larger, and can stand a much longer losing trend.

However the fact still remains that the higher bets cause to much of a fluctuation, and as a result you don't want to have to make them. This means you want to keep the bets lower down.

To do this, just drop down 2 bets instead of 1 on BJs, SPs and DDs (It also depends where I am on the betting ramp to if or who much I drop them). Also, I set an amount of units I want to get ahead by, then reset the bet size.

From bets 1-5, drop DD, SP, & BJ wins by 1 unit, drop single bets by 1

From bets 6-13, drop DD, SP, & BJ wins by 2 units,

From bets 6-12, drop single bets by 1

Over 13, drop DD, SP, and BJs by 3

Over 12 drop single sized bets by 2

Every time you get another 10 units in front, reset the bet size to 1 unit.


Basically this all maximises my chances of surviving a losing streak. That said, most of my targets are pretty small (to match bonus amount if using a bonus, or make $100-200 without a bonus). However, I do hit about 5 of these/day, for an average of about $200 profit each (when I can use bonuses), wins just by progressions are normally about $100. Remember these are US$, so the pay is very nice (I like to average $600US/day = 1kAU.

Basically I haven't really had use for land casino's since I started playing online. The benefits are just too good to ignore; the bonuses, and low risk make it easy money.

Bonuses are getting harder to come by (have to change ID, email, accounts, ways of depositing, IP addresses, etc.

Still, I find it much more profitable than in a land casino, at considerably lower risk. I've been doing this consistenly throughout this year, and don't understand the whining of many BHers (saying the glory days are over).

One thing you have to remember is it's much better to use a progression WITH the bonus (you at least have an edge for a while), that also gives you a much larger BR at no cost to you. If just using the progession, I'll keep my target pretty low.

$100 and $200 wins may not sound like much, but don't forget I get a few of these/day, and they are US$ :wink:
I've done longer hauls before (large target), some of these flopped, but a few went on to a large win.

It's nice money for my age, hell I'm 20 and just got a Porsche.

[Mr J]

On 2003-04-11 21:59, Not2Good wrote:
For us basic people, what does dd, sp, and bj mean??
Can I lend your porsche. I got a hot date this week.:roll:



double down, split and blackjack.

no, I need it :wink:

[Dr Pangloss]

Mr J

I've been doing a little 'BHing' myself recently and have a few questions if I may beg your indulgence.

I have noticed the same corporation (and same basic software user interface) is behind a number of outfits (ie English Harbour, Silver Dollar, Carribean Gold). Their bonus qualification is also the same (x7 T.O.) and their phone numbers all but identical. Should the budding BHer attack all three or cherry pick the best Bonus offer?

What do you understand the term 'player abuse' means to the Casino?

Have you dabbled with 'Be The Dealer' and played the Banker side?

Thanks in advance.

PS the link below contains a discussion on staking progressions with respect to BJ which I think is a re-post from this forum.

http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/progress/progress.htm

[Mr J]

I have noticed the same corporation (and same basic software user interface) is behind a number of outfits (ie English Harbour, Silver Dollar, Carribean Gold). Their bonus qualification is also the same (x7 T.O.) and their phone numbers all but identical. Should the budding BHer attack all three or cherry pick the best Bonus offer?

I'd say they're most probally sister casinos (obviously). Play them all. I play casino groups all the time.

What do you understand the term 'player abuse' means to the Casino?

Playing for profit. Since they can't distinguish between lucky ploppies and pro's, they base it on wagering. Always wager a bit more than you have to. Email them, ask how much your've wagered. They'll tell you your fine to go, so go :wink:.

Player abuse is like the BHers version of heat. It's mainly paranoia. I personally have never been banned, had any of my winnings withheld, or had any of my accounts frozen. Stick to the reputable and honest casino's and you'll be right (stay away from RTG, most of the are crooks).

Have you dabbled with 'Be The Dealer' and played the Banker side?

Under ideal conditions, this would be very profitable. Still, most online players know BS, you have to play alot to get to be the dealer, and you need a very large BR. I wouldn't try it, the variance would wipe you out. Big wins or big losses.

Thanks in advance.

No problems, any more Qs just go ahead.


PS the link below contains a discussion on staking progressions with respect to BJ which I think is a re-post from this forum.


If you habe read some of my other posts, I do not recommend using progressions. I already know what that link is going to be about, especially since I know the website it's on.

Progressions do not change the house edge, and are all longterm losers. All they do is change the size and amount of wins (lots of wins=a few big losses, lots of losses= a few big wins).

The only condition a progression would work is if you hade an infinite BR, and played martingale at a table with no max bet. Of course the condtions would never exist, so don't try it.

Use progressions at your own peril.

What I said above (the modified D'Alembert) is an example that gives you a chance of being a shorterm winner. I used it to start my BR (was too small for counting), and quickly got out before the bubble burst.

[Rain Lover]

Mr J,
Have you entertained the idea that online casino software may not be 100% "kosher". While playing basic strategy blackjack is one of the fairer (ie. low house margin) bets in a real casino,in a virtual casino, they can tickle the margin to whatever they like. With no government supervision and a high risk of being cheated, why would you bother??

[Mr J]

On 2003-04-28 22:11, Rain Lover wrote:
Mr J,
Have you entertained the idea that online casino software may not be 100% "kosher".

Of course. Alot of the software out there is rigged. Many of the casino's do cheat, scam, and rip off players. It's a minefield, you just have to know where to step.

I've played many sessions, at many casino's and have never been cheated. The longest I've ever had to wait to get paid was a few days. Do the research, find out who's honest and reputable.

I bother because I make quite a lot of money of it. Easy money.

It's also who you know, and what approach you use. I only do signups (never gamble with just my money), I have a list of good casino's that offer good bonuses, and hit them up over and over again. There's alot more to it than placing bets. Changing IDs, accounts, IP addresses, computers, photoshopping etc comes into it. To the knowledgable and experienced, it's actually one of the more profitable forms of advantage play around.