So what do you call ...?

[max]

So what is a race where some of the runners have no previous form? I thought they were called "maidens" but I noticed sometime the name of the race does not contain that word. Are they still referred to as "maidens"?

What do you call a race where some of the runners only have 1 or 2 previous starts?

I have been identifying in my testing these races all as "Maidens" and when filtering them out or selecting them only, the change in results can be staggering.

And you thought this was a joke thread didn't you? Maybe it is!

[Silver_and_sand]

So what is a race where some of the runners have no previous form? I thought they were called "maidens" but I noticed sometime the name of the race does not contain that word. Are they still referred to as "maidens"?

It doesn't work like that. Occasionally, you'll see a Listed race that has a horse that has never raced before. A "Maiden" Race is simply a race that is open to horses that have yet to win a race. This is the type of race a new racehorse will start out in, or indeed a horse that has raced 50 odd times without a win. Occasionally though, when the trainer/owners think they have a great horse they might forego the usual process of starting at the bottom and working their way up the ladder, and instead enter their unraced horse in a race against better competition than what you would find in a Maiden race. The risk in doing that comes with having to pay higher nomination and acceptance fees to enter a better quality race, but the potential reward is higher prizemoney.

What do you call a race where some of the runners only have 1 or 2 previous starts?
Not abnormal. The race is not categorized by the horses that decide to race, but rather the race type is announced and restricts the type of horses that can qualify for it. eg. A horse that has won 5 races can not nominate for a Class 3 race (3 wins or less to qualify), yet is may nominate for a Class 6 race (6 wins or less to qualify).

It's up the trainer/owners to decide when and where they think their horse has a chance of winning. If their horse has only raced a couple of times, and say it has won both races, then it would be ineligible to race in maidens and Class 1 races (Class 1 means no entrants are allowed to have had more than 1 win). If they felt their horse was good enough, and were willing to pay the extra fees, they might opt to race the horse in a Class 5 race if they wanted too, in the hope of earning more prizemoney, but with the expectation that they would be racing against some horses that have been good enough to win 5 races.

I've got the formguide in front of me for the Caulfield races on the 9th April. In race 5, there's a horse called Taxi Joe. It had had just the 2 races prior. It's 1st race was a $15,000 1,419m maiden race at Sale, where it finished 9th in a field of 12. It managed to win it's 2nd race, which was a $13,000 1,980m maiden race at Tatura. It looks like the trainer/owners thought Taxi Joe showed too much promise to continue chasing the smaller prizemoney at the country tracks, and decided to pay the higher nomination and acceptance fees and give it a run against much better quality competition in a Listed Metro $100,000 race. It didn't quite work out as planned as Taxi Joe finished 24 lengths from the winner. It was a calculated risk they took. It didn't work, but at least they know that the horse probably isn't going to be a blacktype (winner of Group race(s)), and it's probably best to focus on chasing the smaller prizemoney on offer at country/provincial races.

I have been identifying in my testing these races all as "Maidens" and when filtering them out or selecting them only, the change in results can be staggering.
A maiden race means none of the horses has won a race before (excluding a couple of unlikely technicalities). Your best bet is to avoid all Maiden races, as it's often just pot luck which horse will win. The same goes for 2yo races also, because the horses are really just learning to race, getting used to the barriers, and racing in front of people yelling and screaming at them, and the trainers are still trying to identify the horses' ideal distance, conditions, gear, running position, etc. It's a bit like AFL footy, where you wouldn't expect many 17/18yo rookies to come out and rip the game wide open. You give them a few years to master their trade, before loading higher expectations upon them. Similarly, 1 good game at VFL/WAFL level isn't usually good enough to be elevated to the best 22 at AFL level, and 1 good $13,000 country Maiden win shouldn't be enough to think your horse is good enough to win a $100,000 Listed Metro race.

[max]

Wow Silver.

I learned a lot from your post.

So what races are there? What would you classify them all as?

Maidens
C1
C2
C3
C4
C5
C6

and what else?

[Silver_and_sand]

So what races are there? What would you classify them all as?


As others have often described it here, it's all a bit of "dog's breakfast" really.

Here's the theoretical sequence of race type in terms of expected quality.

Maiden - no wins.
Class 1 - 1 win maximum to qualify to enter.
Class 2 - 2 wins maximum to qualify to enter.
Class 3 - 3 wins maximum to qualify to enter.
Class 4 - 4 wins maximum to qualify to enter.
Class 5 - 5 wins maximum to qualify to enter.
Class 6 - 6 wins maximum to qualify to enter.
Open
Listed (aka Group 4)
Group 3
Group 2
Group 1 - Melbourne Cup, Caulfield Cup, etc.

But then they have some races like 0MW (zero metro wins to qualify), where a horse that has won it's first ten races out in the country, can come to the city, and race for bigger prizemoney, potentially against some city horses who haven't even won once yet. I think the handicapper's view a 0MW race being between a Class 5 and 6 race, but I doubt the typical punter would know that. Then there's Quality races and Cup races and Flying races, etc, and they all probably fall somewhere between a Listed and Group 1 race. Then some races by age and sex, eg. - Fillies and mare only, or say 3yo only.

Some races are now given a maximum rating. For instance, Geelong race 7 today is classified as a max 68 rating race, so to qualify to enter a horse's rating must be 68 or less. So Whitebait (68) has the highest rating, and is therefore the top weight (59kg), and Dramastic had the lowest rating (50) and was given the lowest weight (53kg).

When you get a bunch of horses having previously raced in all different types of races, it can be hard to find a way to compare them against each other. What I usually try to do is forget about class types altogether, and focus instead on prizemoney raced for. In a race for $100,000, I'd much prefer to be on a horse who has run 10 seconds in a row in $100,000 races, than a horse that has won 10 races in a row in $10,000 country races.

You have to think like the trainer/owners. For instance, if a horse wins a $200,000 race, and then it's next race it's racing for $40,000, when it could have entered a race of similar distance for $250,000, then that's a big hint that the trainer thinks the horse isn't at it's best, and isn't willing to risk paying the higher fees to enter a race with higher prizemoney on offer. Too often, you'll see that being touted as the "class horse" in the race, just because it won a big race in it's last effort, and is now racing in a much lower class race. It will be always be overbet, and possibly be an odds-on favourite, and will often be beaten by a longshot, who will then be touted as the next big thing.

If you've got a horse you think is primed for a good run, you're going to be racing it for more prizemoney, not less than it what it last raced for. That's my big tip of the day. Forget about class, and consider the horses by the amount of prizemoney they've raced for and how they've faired in such company instead.

Just to confuse you a bit more, here's a link to a webpage that talks a bit more about class types if you're interested: http://www.justracing.com.au/index.php?artid=1617&catid=52&news_page=1
If that link doesn't work, google "just racing class types" and select the first result.

[Gerry]

A Group One Weight For Age race ( e.g. Cox Plate ) will feature better class horses than you will see in a G1 Handicap (e.g. Melbourne Cup).

As much as we all love "The Cup", it is still only an open handicap and anything can be entered if you have the necessary folding stuff.

Max, I would suggest you try to get hold of one of Don Scott's books on the racing game.

Also the VRC publishes a monthly calendar (magazine format avail. @ newsagents) which explains the hierarchy of races.

Gerry

[max]

Thanks guys. Learning lots.

[Silver_and_sand]

You have to think like the trainer/owners. For instance, if a horse wins a $200,000 race, and then it's next race it's racing for $40,000, when it could have entered a race of similar distance for $250,000, then that's a big hint that the trainer thinks the horse isn't at it's best, and isn't willing to risk paying the higher fees to enter a race with higher prizemoney on offer. Too often, you'll see that being touted as the "class horse" in the race, just because it won a big race in it's last effort, and is now racing in a much lower class race. It will be always be overbet, and possibly be an odds-on favourite, and will often be beaten by a longshot...

It didn't take long to prove the point. Ipswich Race 1 Susashi. The horse came 2nd in a $50,000 Metro Open race in it's 1st race. That's a great effort, but if the trainer still had faith in it, then why is he racing it now in a $10,000 maiden in Ipswich. Sure enough it would have been perceived as the "class horse" in the race just because it ran 2nd in Metro Open race and started at $1.80. I bet the trainer didn't have any money on it for it to win. And it ran like a maiden horse, finishing 6th in a field of 12. Again, you will do well to avoid horses that are racing for less prizemoney than their last start, because they'll be overbet and there'll be a reason why they're racing for less money.