Time for a debate!

[becareful]

I thought the forum has been a bit quite, debate wise, recently so thought it was time to try and get one started.

My topic for this week is "Does the Racing Industry deserve to get 5% of each bet I place?"

In the recent discussions regarding Betfair several people have mentioned that they have a moral issue with betting with Betfair since they "dont support the racing industry". I have heard (although I don't know if this is true or not) that Betfair have approached the Australian racing authorities with proposals to share revenue but have been knocked back so far because the amount they have been offering (between 1% and 2% is the rumour) is insufficient compared to the 5% or so they get from the TABS.

The question is does the industry deserve 5% of everything I bet? My personal opinion is that this amount is too high and the whole industry in Australia is very inefficient. For example within 1 hours drive of my home there are 3 venues that have regular TAB meetings (Canberra, Queanbeyan and Goulburn) and several more that have non-TAB meetings. Why have so many clubs if they are not financially viable without TAB support? It would certainly save a lot of money if clubs were combined and you would get better racing conditions as well - it would cost less to keep one track in excellent condition than have 3 tracks in average condition. In the case of Canberra, Queanbeyan and Goulburn there were 62 meetings last year, of which 52 were covered by Tabcorp - why not run all these at the one track (logically Canberra) with 1 meeting each week.

According to the figures I have there were around 140 different venues used last year for racing covered by TABCORP with a large number of those only running a few meetings per year (in some cases only 1). By combining the smaller clubs into a large regional club (based on geographic regions around Australia) you should be able to save a huge amount of money and provide better quality provincial tracks. This should allow the TABs to reduce their deductions from each pool to give better returns to the punters and allow operations like Betfair to contribute at a lower rate.

So what does everyone else think - would this be a good idea or have I lost my mind (assuming I had one to start with)?

_________________
"Computers can do that????" - Homer Simpson

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: becareful on 2003-04-07 13:28 ]</font>

[xanadu]

I'm with you becareful,

There are a lot of inefficiencies within the racing set-up but you must not forget the very nature of the Australian psyche. As we were colonising this great land and towns began to be established, the first two structures built were a pub and a racecourse. Accordingly, the day out at the races with the family became a very important cornerstone of early settler lifestyle and socialising. This has continued to this day(look at the number of picnic race meetings).
However, in the harsh economic climate of today the need for rationalisation has never become more evident as costs and overheads rise and make the viability of a lot of the current tracks seem forlorn.
While I love the atmosphere of going to the smaller racing venues some may have to close to maintain the viability of racing overall and hopefully increase returns to we suffering punters burdened with exhorbitant Govt deductions from the pay-out pool.
It seems more likely everyday that the "Green monolith" ie. NSW TAB, will take-over the QldTAB, which, I must admit may not be a bad thing, thereby increasing the pool and hopefully larger divs flowing down to punters.
What we need is the amalgamation of all mainland TAB's to provide a true national betting pool where you can place a decent bet without adversely affecting pay-outs too dramatically.
If this was so, I believe the Govt would then consider the entry of such competitors as Betfair as they would feel less threatened.

Cheers.

[Mark]

I too, love going to the races. Whether it be a picnic meeting or a Cox Plate, the smell, the colour, the excitement, the money, the maths, the whole thing. I have been a regular participant for over 25 years, a punter, a bookies clerk, a bookie. over this time I have seen the TAB grow & become greedier & greedier with little benefit flowing to the punter. The number of bookies has dropped alarmingly to the point where value has just about disappeared, the numbers attending have dropped, yet TAB turnover has grown. I don't know that closing tracks is the answer but it has been proposed to the TAB's many times over that if they reduced their take it would increase turnover. Have they listened?. Of course not & now they are just about in panic mode, because somebody (wish it was me!) has come up with the idea of betting exchanges & funnily enough people are using them. The TAB's will now have to merge to one Australia wide pool & greatly reduce their take just to stay in business. Unfortunately the money side, for me anyway, and for many others I would guess, outweighs the other attractions of a day at the races.
I had to laugh when I heard someone on the radio say they were expecting a bumper crowd of around 15000? to Rosehill last week. 20 years ago that was the norm, and those older than me can probably remember when that was the norm for a midweek meeting.
The TAB used to provide a service but is now being usurped by Betfair, that's progress.

[topsy99]

i think that betfair should contribute its fair share to the industry.
the chipping away at the industry by other gambling means has reduced the racing industry to the low level of attendances.
off course tabs, pokies, internet gambling and probably the feeling that racing doesnt offer enough chances of winning has lowered the public interest.
i am not enamoured with the dominance of the golden slipper by two trainers,
i dont think the conflict of interest of close relationships of bookmaker/trainers would stand up to scrutiny anywhere else,
inconsistent performances like the exercise gallop of our hero on saturday doesn't help the image, but enough whinging
i believe betfair (i only know of it in this forum) should pay its fair share.
i support privatising the tab's from a public perspective. example.
i bought an airline ticket to canberra a few weeks ago and 20% of the ticket was made up of taxes (federal) and thats without the government having to own a plane or a bus or an airport, what a great position to be in.
the same applies to tab's the govt and industry skim off the top to ensure that both keep operating. an interloper such as betfair would not be welcome.
good luck with your debate.

[Hammers]

The TAB are hypocritical beyond belief.

If the self righteous who do not support Betfair because of their lack of support of the racing industry also bet on football, English Soccer, Formula One etc with the TAB, then they are equally hypocritical.

[becareful]

Good point Hammers - I now do a lot of Tennis betting (although almost none through the TAB - quite frankly their odds are usually pathetic) but I don't see the TABs rushing to give a percentage of their Tennis turnover to the local tennis club or a percentage of their AFL turnover to the local AFL teams!

Topsy99 - I have no problem with operators such as Betfair making a contribution (and from what I have heard Betfair is happy to do this) - the problem seems to be that the racing industry is too greedy and that the TABS want to prevent any such agreement with Betfair - instead they want them to be prevented from taking bets on Aussie racing.

If I was running the show I would immediately cut the commission rate on all TAB pools (including the exotics) to 10%. 2% to go to the racing industry, 2% to the government and 6% for TAB operating costs. If the punter is placing bets via an automated system (ie. Internet or automated phone system) then the punter gets a 4% rebate so the effective commission rate is only 6%. This would immediately make the TAB competitive with Betfair type operations, increase dividends substantially and give the punters a fair chance of making a profit. In my opinion you would see TAB turnover jump dramatically so the actual loss of revenue to the industry, government and TAB would be minimal. But will it happen - I doubt it!

[xanadu]

Becareful,

If you think the Govt will decrease it's take from the money-cow, which the NSWTAB is, you are in "la-la" land.
Forget it!....get over it....
Think more about the amalgamation of all mainland TAB's asap.
I currently exploit the differentials between all the TAB's but it also restricts me from placing substantial bets when my ratings suggest I am on a "certainty".
If circumstance change, I am geared up to adapt to the new environment, so it doesn't really worry me.

Cheers.

[Fryingpan]

http://au.dailynews.yahoo.com/finance/20030407/reutersfinance/1049679249-1947107360.html

Sometimes it's worth betting on the TAB not from it.

[becareful]

Personally I think any further amalgamation of the TABs would be an extremely bad thing for punters. The TABs already treat the average punter as a source of money rather than as a valued customer. At least with 3 TABs there is some level of competition that stops any one of them from increasing their deduction rates - if they amalgamated how long do you think it would be before the deduction rate from the Win/Place pools gets increased to 20% (or worse)??? As to the argument that a single large pool would advantage us in some way that is ridiculous. As you say you can currently gain an advantage by betting with the highest paying TAB - if you want to place really large bets just put 1/3 with each TAB - problem solved!

As to the government/TAB/racing industry reducing their take - if they had half a brain between the lot of them they would probably be able to work out it would have very little impact on the bottom line. Gambling is not like a normal purchase where their is a limit to how much the customer will buy - effectively with gambling MOST people will simply keep gambling until they have lost the amount they allocate for the purpose. eg. If customer walks in to a club with $100 set aside for pokies they will keep going until it is all gone (unless they have a really big win - small wins will be reinvested). Therefore the "deduction" rate for most gamblers is effectively irrelevant - the club will still end up with the punters $100 regardless of whether the machine is paying out 90%, 95% or 98% - the only difference will be the amount of time it takes the gambler to lose their money. Of course the longer it takes the more "value" the gambler perceives they have got for their money and the more likely they are to come back next time they have some money to "invest". I think you will find most punters at the TAB are the same (with the obvious exception of the very small % that actually win). They will keep betting until they have lost their weekly allowance ($100, $200, whatever) so the TAB/Govt/Industry will end up with roughly the same amount of money regardless of the deduction rate. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if total TAB revenue went UP if they reduced the deduction rate substantially. If you were a punter currently losing say 4% LOT but you suddenly started making 4% POT instead do you think you might invest a lot more money through the TAB?

Of course as you say I am probably in la-la land expecting any of this to happen but I can always dream :smile:

[xanadu]

Becareful,

When I said that I was sceptical that the NSWTAB would ever reduce their take from the betting pools, there is scope for them to show a bit of good faith to the punters. That is the insidious practice of rounding down of divs which is a case of highway robbery. How can they justify the rounding down of calculations to the nearest $0.10 downwards(ie if the calculation of money invested on a runner is divided by the number of successful wagers) comes to 68.9 it is rounded down to $0.60. The money goes into consolidated revenue whereas it should go into a special fund to be used for the betterment of racing. I have heard the Govt's justification for this but it is apretty glib arguement. They contend that most of it is used to return divs of $1.04 when a particular runner has been disproportionately supported in relation to the overall betting poolNSW is the only TAB which returns this div by the way). I have heard them say that they actually lose money in such cases but I am sceptical. That rounding down money is our money and should be returned to we punters by way of larger divs(and divs should be calculated to the nearest 5c not 10c.
We forum contributors should prepare a petition signed by all reg'd contributors and refer it to the Minister for Racing and lobby for reform.

Cheers.

[darkydog2002]

BECAREFUL.couldnt agree more.

[xanadu]

Come clean, becareful, do you have a vested interest in the expansion of Betfair.
Yes or No!
Answer honestly and you won't be judged!
I'll leave it at that!

Cheers.

[becareful]

Xanadu,

No - no vested interest (apart from the link on my website but so far that has not earnt me enough to qualify for a cheque - and probably wont)! I just like them because so far have had quite a bit of success with both racing and sports betting with them. It is much easier to make money when people are offering prices at least 10% higher than TAB or bookies!

As a punter though I have a huge interest in seeing the TABs drop their withholding rate - would make all our lives a whole lot easier if we only had to overcome a 5-8% disadvantage instead of a 15-20% disadvantage. Cant see it happening though!

[Mark]

I think anyone interested in getting value has a vested interest in Betfair & others expanding.

[Chrome Prince]

On 2003-04-10 22:44, Mark wrote:
I think anyone interested in getting value has a vested interest in Betfair & others expanding.


Well said Mark!

We could also say..

Anyone interested in "WINNING" has a vested interest in Betfair & others expanding, and when enough punters realise that VALUE equals PROFIT instead of loss - they too will do absolutely anything to keep BetFair in operation and make the TAB's more realistic in the pecentage of the pool they offer punters.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Chrome Prince on 2003-04-11 01:06 ]</font>