How many lengths does a horse save on the fence

[Barny]

I've always wondered how many lengths are saved by a horse travelling on the fence compared with a horse one out .....

I can picture the can of worms unravelling right now in front of my eyes, but there must be a rule of thumb that gives the unwashed (me) half a clue ..... or do I need to go and get my Trig book out ??

Shocking's win in the Melb Cup, had it run no more than one out all the way probs would have won by 10 lengths ???

[Vortech]

Depends if he bought the fence from Bunnings or Mitre 10.
Generally the fence at each track is a standard height so that horse wouldn't be saving much $$$$.

[Try Try Again]

Hi Barny/Vortech,

If you think of it logically a horse does not cover any extra ground when running in a straight line. It is only on the bends where a horse will cover extra ground.

Hence we need to consider the configuration of the track. Courses such as MV and Canterbury which are tight turning tracks the ground covered would be greater than say Randwick or Flemington.

Saying all this it is interesting to hear some of the jockeys riding the International horses saying the horses prefer to be ridden wide as it gives them clear running and less chance of get blocked or checked.

An interesting debate!

[Luxinterior]

You just need to look at the 400m race in athletics and see how far lane 8 begins in front of lane 1 in the staggered start.
If two runners were to start next to each other on an athletics track it would go like this...
A lap in lane 1 = 400m
A lap in lane 8 = 450m

Where it starts to get murky in horse racing is that unlike athletics the race is not usually run on an even surface.
In many cases hugging the rail is the last place you want to be while being three wide with cover can actually be an advantage on some tracks in certain circumstances.

[Vortech]

something like 27km you could save by travelling around Australia anti-clockwise vs clockwise due to the inside lane

[Barny]

It is only on the bends where a horse will cover extra ground.

Hence we need to consider the configuration of the track. Courses such as MV and Canterbury which are tight turning tracks the ground covered would be greater than say Randwick or Flemington.
I would welcome some factual / scientific information. I haven't seen this topic covered at all on this forum dating back yonks.

[TheSchmile]

Hi Barny,

I found this on racerate which you might find interesting:

Wide runners (http://www.racerate.com/Wide_Runners_Melbourne.htm)

[Lord Greystoke]

Depends if he bought the fence from Bunnings or Mitre 10.
Generally the fence at each track is a standard height so that horse wouldn't be saving much $$$$.

classic !

LG

[Barny]

Hi Barny,

I found this on racerate which you might find interesting:

Wide runners (http://www.racerate.com/Wide_Runners_Melbourne.htm)
Thank you so much TheSchmile, and isn't it funny in this caper you continually learn so much about yourself !! I have been interested to learn about wide runners for quite a while and this was a serious question that I (ME) wanted an answer to. I've used this forum to get a few cheap larffs in the past, but got quite miffed when my post wasn't answered as I'd expected !!

Thanks again TheSchmile, and I apologise for what I was thinking about Vortech (who incidentally came up with one of the funniest things I'd ever read ...... BUT !!!) and LG ..... Brill, Thanks again TheSchmile.

[Vortech]

If you are going to put a proper analysis together you would have to look at other factors too like

- Rail position
- Barrier starting position

Most of the testing would be in past tense. How much ground did a horse cover last start and did that in the end affect its finishing position. Its something that could be considered but I would assume most punters would review the race replays and take into consideration other variables like

- speed of the race
- settling position
- does the horse have cover
- blocked for a run
- bumped (believe me - young horses hold their breath when they take a knock)
- pulling the head
- pricking of ears at certain stages of the race
- changes in velocity
- timing of accelreation

and..... the 100+ other variables.

[TheSchmile]

Thank you so much TheSchmile, and isn't it funny in this caper you continually learn so much about yourself !! I have been interested to learn about wide runners for quite a while and this was a serious question that I (ME) wanted an answer to. I've used this forum to get a few cheap larffs in the past, but got quite miffed when my post wasn't answered as I'd expected !!

Thanks again TheSchmile, and I apologise for what I was thinking about Vortech (who incidentally came up with one of the funniest things I'd ever read ...... BUT !!!) and LG ..... Brill, Thanks again TheSchmile.

No worries Barny,

Glad to be of assistance! :)

[woof43]

I've always wondered how many lengths are saved by a horse travelling on the fence compared with a horse one out .....

I can picture the can of worms unravelling right now in front of my eyes, but there must be a rule of thumb that gives the unwashed (me) half a clue ..... or do I need to go and get my Trig book out ??

Shocking's win in the Melb Cup, had it run no more than one out all the way probs would have won by 10 lengths ???

Barny, I feel, once you answer the question of How long is a race? then you may start to unravel the distance and time riddle.
For simplicity if you multiply your benchmark time by your measured distance this will give you a figure called a Track Constant, for simplicity one would just divide time of each runner into the track constant to give the actual distance completed against the benchmark horse, that would give you one of the three crosshairs in finding a horses performance envelope.

Also your other assertions re racing on the fence, would usain bolt have run quicker in the 200m event on the inside lane, rather then a middle lane. Also there is a formula for centripetal speed that can assist in your studies

[Chrome Prince]

A very interesting topic Barny.

I don't think it can be quantified as an exact formula due to the many variants that need to be considered. Recently I have watched a lot of international racing live from the UK and USA and bearing in mind the live racing from here, I have managed to deduce a number of things from this.

It would be easy "on paper" to work out distance travelled given the layout and circumference of a track. But this formula would be flawed in reality. The example of athletics is a good one, because it cannot translate to racing.
In athletics the track is smaller, each athlete sticks to their lane and there is no pace, it is flat out all the way, albeit with a finishing burst. One can note that in a sprint in athletics there is no staggered start, yet anything longer than a sprint there is. The track has much tighter bends than a racecourse. One of the main differences is the speed at which an athlete travels is a whole lot less than a racehorse, therefore the effects of centrifugal force are also less.

If a horse were to race five wide the whole trip, it would be severely disadvantaged due to centrifugal force pushing it further out on the bends.
It also depends on where the best going is on the track, it could be that in later races or rain affected tracks being on the fence is a disadvantage.

However, the point to make here is that if a horse has been racing one or two out the whole trip, but the pace has been kind, it can fan five wide on the home turn with little disadvantage and still win.

A very good in running lay method both at the races and the trots is to find a favoured runner that is wide or takes off at the begining of the turn, not the home turn. A lot of favoured runners lose that way.

So I don't think there is an exact answer to your question unless it's on paper.