Long winded and ... I'm guessing ...

[Barny]

I still see punters fiddling around the edges trying to find that elusive Holy Grail. There appear to be some successful punters on here working the odds which is great for them, but for the rest who post on here regularly I despair for some of them. If they're only having a bit of fun at the punt then that's fair enough, but for mine, if some of these people were betting heavily then thery're losing heavily. It stands out that most punters do not have a plan, yet they punt enough money per annum to suggest that they should have a plan. You don't have to be a big punter to turn over $50k. I'm sure these very same people if offered a working stake in a business for the sum of $50k would do their due diligence. But mug punters are well named. The top currency traders in the world all have a plan and all share similar traits. 1) These people maximise their profits and cut their losses short, without mercy. That's the exact opposite to 99% of punters, I need not use examples, you only need to go and look in the mirror and know that plenty of times you've locked in a small profit, yet done some stupid things when you've been behind on the day, you've chased your losses. 2) These successful traders, trade with systems that suit their personality. Some are in and out of a trade withing a hour, some a day, some a week, some consider a short trade a few weeks, some keep a trade open for months, but the important element here is that the successful ones trade in a way that suits their personality. 3) They dont used scared money.

Permit me to use whole numbers hore so it's easier to understand. The TAB takes out 20% so that means that we only have to be 20% better than the average punter to break even (yup I know down 20% = you need +25% but the TAB doesn't take out as much as 20%). There are other means of betting where you can improve your dividends above the TAB.

There are systems that win year in and year out so why fight it? There have been systems posted on here that continue to win year in and year out. I could not believe why punters didn't take these systems and go and make some money from them, but it's now very clear to me that for someone to successfully use a winning system it has to 1) match their personality otherwise it's useless to them and 2) they must resist the temptation to "make it better", most will want to put their own stamp on it thus rendering it useless. There was a comment on here many moons ago that you could write the best system in the world on the pavement outside Randwick and no-one would take notice of it. I couldn't understand it at the time but I sure as ******** get it now.

People who lose on the stockmarket blame their losses on those who manipulate stocks, in other words they don't know how to win. Same with the punt. "There's no such thing as a winning system". Like the top currency traders you need to be on top of your game and be on the lookout for changes, but one thing that stays constant is the publics approach to gambling, greed, the fear of losing, the emotions behind the odds, the myths that have been around for a hundred years. These are constants and the better punters can take advantage of them.

If you can come up with half a dozen systems that show a POT of around 10% (if you can't then you really shouldn't be punting) - Go for it when you start winning and back off (reduce the size of your bets) when you're losing. You can then win consistently and win long term. It's a shame that management are bound to delete posts that refer to commercial organisations for fear of defamation, because I could prove beyond doubt how to profit with freely available information. For those with databases, I'm sure they'll agree that there are winning systems to be had and myths to be busted, and for those without a database then NO, I'll not provide you any systems. My very best filters are 1) race prizemoney - fair / decent horses can only go so far and then class will get to them, but it's surprising how far they can go when they're in form, hence the never ending argument about class, especially when the raw data spills over into Group races and 2) the sex of the beast and 3) the SP - this is a must have as it can tell you what the form doesn't but also it can stop you backing 40/1 pops when their true odds should be 500/1 and keeps you out of the shorties in certain events.

The greatest larfff is Ratings .....

[TWOBETS]

The greatest larfff is Ratings .....

Couldn't agree less Barny, although I'm sure not all successfull punters need them.

[bernie]

The same old, same old, Barny. Just another lengthy script with no substance. Always telling Joe public that it can be done without any proof to back it up. Boring, boring, boring.

Personally, I think you are trying to defend your own lack of judgment on the punt. The greatest larfff is you laddie.

[Puntz]

I did not mind reading the long winded thread. But to cull some of it, each "system" does seem to fit someone's "personality".
However, there IS plenty of innovative talent out there when the average punter is concerned.
But what happens is this, it's the dilemma of the three-sum.
1. The innovator.
2. Builder
3. Financier.

The innovator needs the builder ( punter-programmer)
The programmer needs the financier to pay for stuff to be developed, based on the innovator.

Same goes with rock stars, Elvis could sing, he needed a manager who can't sing, and the manager needed a recording studio to make records to sell.

Who ends up getting screwed in a business , in principle?

Answer is, the innovator, the one with the idea.

Same with this game here.
One has a "system" on paper, but needs a programmer, who needs to get paid, first.
So the man with the money comes along, finances the "system", and runs away with the programmer.

And on it goes, same ol same ol......

[stugots]

hear hear bernie

[Barny]

OK Bernie, which parts do you disagree with ??, or is it too close to the bone Bernie ??

[Vortech]

It is true the TAB does take out a large % of the pot.

But at the same time - most punters now take advantage of the Best of three totes or Betfair which reduces the takeout.

I doubt any profitable punter would use one TAB to place their bets.

[Barny]

Bernie, I'd be the worlds biggest mug to try and prove a point to you and post what's taken me hundreds and hundreds of hours to compile, plus a lifetime's worth of interest, plus hard copy records older than Methuselah!~! I'll tell you tho', if you keep it simple, what worked 50 years ago works today, and too much effort is expended on the subtle (weights excluded) changes in racing. A lot of posters on here would strongly disagree with that statement Bernie, but they're not to know what methods I'm using.

Go back and have a look at the old posts here Bernie, the ones that discussed systems, unlike now where there's mainly discussion about laying longshots, Betfair and the like, very few systems put up for discussion, Top 10 sires is an exception.

It seems like you struggle to understand a post about ideas Bernie, you might be the type that likes everything put in front of him so he doesn't have to think, and that's fair enough too Bernie. Maybe if you want substance you could lead by example.

Here's a bit of substance Bernie. Go and research an old poster called crash. Not widely recognised as a systems enthusiast, he was a handicapper, but he put up one of the best systems on here, you'll need to make a slight modification but it's one of the very best. Also Bhagwan's systems LSW 7 days with a tweak, Partypoopers Topweight systems, Privateers Pareto system, Equine Investor, Punter57 was a beaut too, there's more systems than you could poke a stick at Bernie ..... there's substance for you Bernie, all you have to do is do a little work and a bit of testing. Hope I've been of some help here Bernie and just put your bad day on the punt down to lack of research and endeavour.

[garyf]

The greatest larfff is Ratings .....Long winded and ... I'm guessing ...

Most of what you say is quite pertinent Barny and congratulations,
On having a go, however the title of the thread sums up what,
I think of the ratings comment.

Good luck on whatever approach you use.

Cheers.
Garyf.

[Lord Greystoke]

I did not mind reading the long winded thread. But to cull some of it, each "system" does seem to fit someone's "personality".
However, there IS plenty of innovative talent out there when the average punter is concerned.
But what happens is this, it's the dilemma of the three-sum.
1. The innovator.
2. Builder
3. Financier.

The innovator needs the builder ( punter-programmer)
The programmer needs the financier to pay for stuff to be developed, based on the innovator.

Same goes with rock stars, Elvis could sing, he needed a manager who can't sing, and the manager needed a recording studio to make records to sell.

Who ends up getting screwed in a business , in principle?

Answer is, the innovator, the one with the idea.

Same with this game here.
One has a "system" on paper, but needs a programmer, who needs to get paid, first.
So the man with the money comes along, finances the "system", and runs away with the programmer.

And on it goes, same ol same ol......

That's an interesting post you punched out, Puntz.

Somewhere along the line, there must have been an innovator who got it right, played it smart, didn't get screwed etc etc Having said that, perhaps it's best to innovate 2nd, 3rd(4th) in line i.e. improve what's already there which if done with insight and inspiration can be a masterpiece in itself. In fact, nothing is completely new. That thread that winds through evolution itself?

Innovation. Creative destruction.Something dies, something else is born?

Back to your initial example however and a new slant perhaps; is there a central force / role that pulls these 3 together and focuses their efforts in the one direction as a team? Manager? Director?

Have been recently reading up on what makes some people excellent at creating new ideas and bringing the right people together to make stuff happen, whilst others are actually much better suited at the grunt work of getting the job done, project launched, problems ironed out etc etc. Point being, they need to leverage off each other to pull the rabbit out of the hat. Neither can do it alone. Next point being, they also need to be similar in some fundamental ways to get to the altar, if you get my drift.

Back to the punt and here in this forum, have noticed that some of the very best breakthroughs seem to be born out of 2 people knocking heads together in a constructive way and swapping notes, adding bits and pieces from their own mindsets, preferences, styles, obsessions, experiences to creating something new. Some of this happens 'off line' but that's ok too.
Some of the best recent examples include The Sires thread by The Schmile or Neural lays by messers michaelg , speedy, RP etc

This forum at it's best is a place of synergy, symbiosis, inspiration, creation, creative destruction. Old stuff dusted down and made new. New stuff chewed up and spat out. It may not be the 'real world' as we know it, but every gamut that makes us human is jam packed in here with us too... despair, hope, sadness, guilt, anger, envy, euphoria !

Somehow, those(most?) of us who come back every day wouldn't have it any other way. And for some of us, this might just be the most positive focus of our every day lives. Take that as you will, but best to have some focus and a + one than none at all?

Good post, Mr Puntz.

Cheers LG

PS respect due to Barny too, for 'ripping open the can' and bringing on some lively discussion.

[rails run]

I don't know Garyf.

"I'm only guessing"

Some good points made with such ascertion but I'm starting to doubt what I see in ratings that he doesnt; now that he's done so many hours on this. This could be a life changing moment for me. I can toss it in and save all those miserable days on the take.

I am so happy now. You should all feel enlightened too. I am so happy now.

[Vortech]

From the start of the threads right through to about July 2009 I've been collecting all the systems that I have the ability to test. (around 500 systems)

Some posters have put some really excellent systems out there and then again there are other systems which are very ordinary.

Very good results around colts, LS winners and short turnarounds.

I'm happy to send through any of the profitable systems if anyone is interested on a another thread as I''ve gone off topic again.

I enjoy your expression of ideas Barny

[SpeedyBen]

From the start of the threads right through to about July 2009 I've been collecting all the systems that I have the ability to test. (around 500 systems)

Some posters have put some really excellent systems out there and then again there are other systems which are very ordinary.

Very good results around colts, LS winners and short turnarounds.

I'm happy to send through any of the profitable systems if anyone is interested on a another thread as I''ve gone off topic again.

I enjoy your expression of ideas BarnyVortech
If you have put in all that hard work why not publish the fruits of your labour.

[bernie]

OK Bernie, which parts do you disagree with ??, or is it too close to the bone Bernie ??
No, not too close to the bone laddie. If you bothered to look at my posts you would see that I don't gamble. Gambling is for losers unless you have found the Holy Grail. I prefer to keep my money in the bank.

I just get sick of the same old story time after time. Some here, probably the newbie's, get something out of your ramblings. Some it appears would agree with me. Move on print something constructive. How about your picks for today or the coming week? Nah, never happens eh Barny.

[kiwi]

From the start of the threads right through to about July 2009 I've been collecting all the systems that I have the ability to test. (around 500 systems)

Some posters have put some really excellent systems out there and then again there are other systems which are very ordinary.

Very good results around colts, LS winners and short turnarounds.

I'm happy to send through any of the profitable systems if anyone is interested on a another thread as I''ve gone off topic again.

I enjoy your expression of ideas Barny

Vortech, big ups if you start a thread on these systems, if nobody else is interested I would like to see them at charlieed@slingshot.co.nz.

Open to all ideas and yours are among the best.

Cheers, Chas.

[Pauls123]

Hi Vortech,

That's very kind of you. If you dont mind I would love to have a look at some of your profitable systems.

Regards,
Paul

pauls49@bigpond.com

[beton]

Vortech
My hand goes up as well thanks
wally at wallyhughes dot com dot au

[TheSchmile]

Count me in Vortech.

paullytwoshoes at gmail dot com

[The Ocho]

I'll throw my hat into the ring to Vortech if that's alright. :)

equalthree at yahoo dot com dot au

[Lord Greystoke]

I would also like to put my hand up, Vortech.

LORDGREYSTOKE3RD at GMAIL dot com

Much appreciated.

Cheers LG

[UselessBettor]

another one here too

betfinder@exemail.com.au

[CosMos]

me too if you are not posting on site...love looking at other ideas and working something new perhaps

cuddlesnz at gmail dot com

[Rinconpaul]

From the start of the threads right through to about July 2009 I've been collecting all the systems that I have the ability to test. (around 500 systems)

Some posters have put some really excellent systems out there and then again there are other systems which are very ordinary.

Very good results around colts, LS winners and short turnarounds.

I'm happy to send through any of the profitable systems if anyone is interested on a another thread as I''ve gone off topic again.

I enjoy your expression of ideas BarnyAppreciate it if you could forward a copy Vortech: peasther@optusnet.com.au
many thanks RP

[jose]

Popular thread this :-)
Count me in too............

josefimmer62 at gmail dot com

[Vortech]

Ill post them to a new thread starting on monday.

[bernie]

I'm happy to send through any of the profitable systems if anyone is interested Just one will do me Vortech. Just one profitable system and I will call you the messiah of the forum. I don't want to make use of it. I just want to see a winning system presented on this forum that has withstood the test of time.

Notice how everyone jumps on the bandwagon as soon as you mention a profitable system. They all want to know. Only one reason, they aren't winning.

I take my hat off to michaelg. He has the balls to give out his selections. Good on you michealg. If Barny did the same he may get my respect.

[CosMos]

rubbish Bernie....I have my own...but I am always willing to look at others as I often develop something new from them...the more I read the more it stimulates new ideas

[The Ocho]

Notice how everyone jumps on the bandwagon as soon as you mention a profitable system. They all want to know. Only one reason, they aren't winning.
Nice of you to tar everyone with the same brush, bernie.

I'm sure not every one is losing. They (like me I presume) would like to know what else there is around to add to one's arsenal.

[jose]

Spot on TO.
Never hurts to broaden the horizons.
Yes, probably easier to just post them Vortech, cheers anyhow.

[bernie]

rubbish Bernie....I have my own...but I am always willing to look at others as I often develop something new from them...the more I read the more it stimulates new ideasTo TO as well
Yeah you may have your own but can you prove they are profitable? I doubt it. Be like michaelg and give something instead of taking.

Of course we are all willing to learn, that is why I am here. But when people cry out "Oh please can I have it too" it only says one of two things, they are too lazy to do your own research or they are losing on the punt. Simple!

[jose]

Not strictly true Bernie.
As stated, it does not hurt to refine/tweak ones own strategies.

[beton]

To TO as well
Yeah you may have your own but can you prove they are profitable? I doubt it. Be like michaelg and give something instead of taking.

Of course we are all willing to learn, that is why I am here. But when people cry out "Oh please can I have it too" it only says one of two things, they are too lazy to do your own research or they are losing on the punt. Simple!
Bernie. I see you have put your hand up too. Everybody still has much to learn. Observing from the side and making judgements of others is erroneous and reflects only on you. Almost everybody gives, usually to their own level at the time. Unless one takes the opportunities to learn one does not mature. Whether someone is making a profit or losing is no concern of yours ever. Beton
Thank you Vortech for making the offer

[bernie]

Bernie. Whether someone is making a profit or losing is no concern of yours ever. Betonlol I never said it did.

[SpeedyBen]

To TO as well
Yeah you may have your own but can you prove they are profitable? I doubt it. Be like michaelg and give something instead of taking.

Of course we are all willing to learn, that is why I am here. But when people cry out "Oh please can I have it too" it only says one of two things, they are too lazy to do your own research or they are losing on the punt. Simple!How long do you consider to be the test of time, Bernie.

[Barny]

Ill post them to a new thread starting on monday.Vortech, I reckon I've got every system posted on here including the rationale and discussion behind the systems. I'll add to your thread in many ways, with systems, and including some of the commentary from the past but certainly won't post the systems that I punt. This is not the stockmarket where the more that get on board the better, this is the opposite, the divs / systems could easily take a nosedive. I recall posting a few systems on here and mostly they got pooh poohed because the POT wasn't big enough, or the SR was too small. Strangely, in the past, these types of posts led to a lot of discussion and the ultimate development of a better system or it was consigned to the rubbish bin. I got more from the discussion than I did from the publication of raw data. Maybe most want the finished article without the hard work these days?!

As gambling is full of all the psychological traits known to man and then some, everyone's opinion is valid ..... could be interpreted as the more mugs involved the better. WHO SAID THAT ?????!!!!!!!!! :)

[Barny]

If you bothered to look at my posts you would see that I don't gamble. Gambling is for losers unless you have found the Holy Grail. I prefer to keep my money in the bank.


The only reason you don't gamble is because you lose, you've admitted as much and it's sensible that you abstain. Lots of punters would wish they had your wisdom and willpower on that score Bernie !!

[bernie]

How long do you consider to be the test of time, Bernie.Hi speedy. How long is a piece of string? I've been studying systems for over 45 years and I'm still to be convinced there is a winning system or Holy Grail. Yes, I agree there is luck and some have it, most don't.

There is a system posted on this forum some time ago that I thought was a winner. I recorded results for over 1,000 races. For the first 500 races it was making about 15% POT but after that it was all down hill. I tweaked it this way and that but could never get it back on track. So, in answer to your question, the sky's the limit. There is no test of time. Gambling is gambling and we know who wins in the end. Very seldom is it the punter although many like to make out they do in the anonymity of forums like this.

By the way, I'm always available to meet with anyone who wishes to prove otherwise. Those avid gamblers will have heard of a guy named Turbo Genius, a man who said he never lost whenever he played roulette. I offered to pay his airfares from the States and accommodation also if he could prove it. I'm still waiting.

[bernie]

[QUOTE=Barny)Lots of punters would wish they had your wisdom and willpower on that score Bernie !![/QUOTE]

It's not wisdom and willpower it's common sense.

[CosMos]

people like you bernie are the reason I don't post often here...I have been studying systems for a long time and I have shared here before but no one answered. "Be like michaelg and give something instead of taking."
Recently I have added to the Top sires thread so stop your silly accusations and grow up. As I said, I have always liked to keep learning and developing my systems further. I am always willing to give, that is in my nature. I would much rather develop my own systems than use someone elses.

[Lord Greystoke]

Hi speedy. How long is a piece of string? I've been studying systems for over 45 years and I'm still to be convinced there is a winning system or Holy Grail. Yes, I agree there is luck and some have it, most don't.

Gambling is gambling and we know who wins in the end. Very seldom is it the punter although many like to make out they do in the anonymity of forums like this.

Hi Bernie. If you don't mind me asking, what's the deal for you in being here? If you are so convinced that no-one here wins consistently (whether that be 10%, 5%, 3% or 1%) then why bother to continue seek out what is already a 'truth' for you?

Does you view on gambling extend to life in general i.e. life is a gamble and we know who wins in the end. Also, what would the 'holy grail' be for you, if such a thing did exist?

Just curious.

Cheers LG

[Barny]

Hi speedy. How long is a piece of string? I've been studying systems for over 45 years and I'm still to be convinced there is a winning system or Holy Grail. Yes, I agree there is luck and some have it, most don't.

There is a system posted on this forum some time ago that I thought was a winner. I recorded results for over 1,000 races. For the first 500 races it was making about 15% POT but after that it was all down hill. I tweaked it this way and that but could never get it back on track. So, in answer to your question, the sky's the limit. There is no test of time. Gambling is gambling and we know who wins in the end. Very seldom is it the punter although many like to make out they do in the anonymity of forums like this.

By the way, I'm always available to meet with anyone who wishes to prove otherwise. Those avid gamblers will have heard of a guy named Turbo Genius, a man who said he never lost whenever he played roulette. I offered to pay his airfares from the States and accommodation also if he could prove it. I'm still waiting.Bernie, I'm of the opinion that it's impossible to win at roulette, so we agree there.

Could I indulge you to post the system that you mention that was on this forum that you thought was a winner. It would be a beaut case study and I'm sure many on here would be only to pleased to test it and discuss it. You've got nothing to lose here Bernie as you're not punting it, what about it ??

[Barny]

.I have been studying systems for a long time and I have shared here before but no one answered. Heard that one many times CosMos, but I believe that many take notice, they just dont get involved. Years ago they did, now they don't. Personally I've resisted posting on the Top 10 Sires thread in fear of attracting a few / quite a few (lol) that don't like my posts / me, and subsequently destroying the thread.

[Barny]

You're on a game show and you have to pick one of three doors for the prize.

You pick door 1.

The host says to open door 2 and of course door 2 does not contain the prize (because the host knows). The host asks you if you'd like to switch your choice from door 1 to door 3 ?? The correct answer is that you should switch to door 3.

The reason is that the host "knew" that one of the two remaining doors (the ones you did not choose) did not contain the prize, so the process was not random and the odds had indeed changed. If the probability of the prize being in door 2 or door 3 is 2/3rds, then given that it's not door 2, then the odds of the prize being in door 3 is 2/3rds.

That's why you cannot win at Roulette ......... sigh ;)

[The Ocho]

No, not too close to the bone laddie. If you bothered to look at my posts you would see that I don't gamble. Gambling is for losers unless you have found the Holy Grail. I prefer to keep my money in the bank.

I just get sick of the same old story time after time. Some here, probably the newbie's, get something out of your ramblings. Some it appears would agree with me. Move on print something constructive. How about your picks for today or the coming week? Nah, never happens eh Barny.
If you don't gamble, bernie, then what the h ell are you doing lurking on this website wanting someone to show you a winning system?

And, by the way, I've tried to show people that you can make money trading although I doubt you would make any doing that. You wouldn't have the right attitude.

[SpeedyBen]

Good point, Ocho.
I live off my gambling Bernie but as you said you don't believe it. I guess I follow a system of sorts, more than one in fact, but will the same ones work forever? Impossible to prove that isn't it Bernie? I've just posted a 1000 bet trial of a laying system which was highly successful. Will it work forever? Probably not, but I'll bet you won't be the one to find the perfect system with your attitude. Now that is a perfect prediction.

[Barny]

Hang on a sec ..... I can see the winds of change here and ganging up on Bernie is bullying. He's ripped in to me on occassions but I'm fair game the way I post. He's entitled to his opinion.

[The Ocho]

Hang on a sec ..... I can see the winds of change here and ganging up on Bernie is bullying. He's ripped in to me on occassions but I'm fair game the way I post. He's entitled to his opinion.
And so are we.

[beton]

Hang on a sec ..... I can see the winds of change here and ganging up on Bernie is bullying. He's entitled to his opinion.
I agree fullheartedly on both accounts. Unfortunately sometimes people post without thinking or without concern for their fellow posters. Sometimes they make unfounded assumptions and post them. Which can be like a red flag to a bull (red flag - bull?? - they are colourblind)

[CosMos]

Bernie made allegations of me taking and not giving which is untrue Barny...I will stand up for myself as he made no attempt to ask me about any system I may have. I post here to have some fun and to learn and share but I guess that may change as I have better things to do than defend myself. No bullying by me by the way.

[Moderator 3]

This thread has gone off the rails with nothing to do with Betting Systems and folks just having a go at each other.

It has now been closed.

Moderator.