Pinnacle Sports Australia

[Pat123]

This may be old news so feel free to delete this if there's already a thread.

I had a chat today to a manager at theoddsbroker and he said Pinnacle Sports Australia is opening up soon and going to offer racing and fixed odds, and most importantly, not ban punters.

Excited.

[Chrome Prince]

Wow, this could really be something if it's true.
Wonder what their takeout will be though?

[Pat123]

Not sure. Glad he said they'll work by the same model as Pinnacle usually do though and use their winning customers to sharpen their lines/odds. So far it'll be Aus racing and Sports, but I told him I'd really like international racing too at some point. We'll see..

[Chrome Prince]

Not sure how they can get ahead of that though, the sharper bods will dump on the overlays or arbs in the last seconds?

[Pat123]

I dunno. He was adamant in stressing two things, 1) you'll be able to get set for huge limits (bigger than Topsport etc) and 2) winners are more than welcome.

[stugots]

If true that could put a few of the pommy blowins in a bit of strife...oh the joy;)

[UselessBettor]

Pinnacle just make a book and adjust their lines very quickly and correctly. They do an amazing job of getting the lines right. Movements on their odds can be quick and rapid though so overlays don't hang around for long.

[Chrome Prince]

IF and a massive IF, they use the same takeout as exists in their models, it will blow all competition including Betfair out of the water for good.
You'll be able to back horses without levy, premium charges, and at reduced commission. How on earth will they get around the horseracing levy though?

[Pat123]

Yes, he said they will be using the same models. He said they have the license for Pinnacle Sports AU and mentioned things should get off the ground in a few weeks. Anything can change though, so I've asked to be emailed with updates. I'll put them here.

[Pat123]

Website testing starts next week. Their aim is to be up and running for the World Cup.

[Chrome Prince]

Any word on progress Pat?
All I could find was abseiling and rock climbing lol

[Pat123]

Any word on progress Pat?
All I could find was abseiling and rock climbing lol


Yeah I keep doing a google search and find that site too - I'm sure they'd want that domain name.

I'll email the guy and see what the update is, however the other week he just said they're testing and hope to be good for the world cup especially.

[Pat123]

Ok so testing begins next week. I've been asked to help them, along with a number of others to be one of their pre full release market testers. I'll keep you up to date with when they plan to go live.

[Pat123]

Sports are offered for the first 2 weeks then racing thereafter.

[Pat123]

Sports testing this Thurs to Sun. Gearing up for the world cup.

[Rinconpaul]

In consideration of this news and referencing CP's post from 'Laying the Field",
"However, it's all been purely because the traders hit the Aussie markets and made it unprofitable, then Premium Charges hit and levies and traders left and we're back folks"

Where do you think this will leave the exchange model? As in the Backers will depart to Pinnacle, knowing they won't be limited. That leaves the Layers with no one to exchange bets with, hardly. Yikes!!

[Pat123]

I'm thinking Pinnacle could get a few customers. Just a few lol.

Maybe this will force others to up their game.

[evajb001]

You'd be hoping that the introduction of pinnacle would force the others to up their game, but at the same time that depends on how many of the 95% who aren't profitable decide to move across. That will depend on a combination of marketing, joining bonuses, word of mouth etc etc. If they do start to gain some traction and take reasonable market share then the current bookies have no other option but to step up their game.

[Pat123]

I was thinking along the lines of stop limiting winners, arbers and banning altogether. Probably won't, but if Pinnacle turn out to be the best in all areas (odds, massive bet size limits, no limiting or banning), never know..

[Chrome Prince]

In consideration of this news and referencing CP's post from 'Laying the Field",
"However, it's all been purely because the traders hit the Aussie markets and made it unprofitable, then Premium Charges hit and levies and traders left and we're back folks"

Where do you think this will leave the exchange model? As in the Backers will depart to Pinnacle, knowing they won't be limited. That leaves the Layers with no one to exchange bets with, hardly. Yikes!!

I predict it will be like the USA races, no action until the dying 30 seconds and then you'll be able to lay first and second favourites at reasonable prices, everything else will have no value and be massive gaps between back and lay prices.
Rhe original exchange model was brilliant, then they floated and the number one priority was growth. It's like nightclubs, give all the girls a free drinkcard and twice as many blokes will follow and drink twice as much, because the blokes buy the girls drinks anyway. Betfair just don't get this method of marketing.
Make Betfair the most attractive place to be with best odds, least commission and traders will flock back carrying with them new clients and liquidity.
Some CEO's have 1000 degrees but no nouse!!!!

1% of 10 million is much better than 10% of $10,000, especially when that 10% has to be spent on arcade games, sportsbook and advertising to get people in. Word of mouth is the best and cheapest investment any corporation can make.

[stugots]

In consideration of this news and referencing CP's post from 'Laying the Field",
"However, it's all been purely because the traders hit the Aussie markets and made it unprofitable, then Premium Charges hit and levies and traders left and we're back folks"

Where do you think this will leave the exchange model? As in the Backers will depart to Pinnacle, knowing they won't be limited. That leaves the Layers with no one to exchange bets with, hardly. Yikes!!


Seeing as BF do not limit, I am not sure why backers would leave to bet with a bookie that in all likelyhood will be offering lower prices than those currently available at BFSP.

I welcome Pinnacle in the hope they deliver a long & painful kick in the bum to the current batch of corps, but suspect there's a bit of an overreaction going on here regards their potential impact on BF.

[UselessBettor]

Look at the actual turnover for betfair on Australian markets for the last few years. It has still grown for Australia. Even after the turnover tax, the premium charges, etc. Its growing. Betfair has more charges to pay out to regulatory bodies but there market share has not dropped.

From the annual report:


Betfair Australia is a 50:50 joint venture between Betfair and Crown Limited. Net revenue was up 13% in the year, driven by a 23% increase in Australian racing revenues. Following the decision of certain states to implement turnover-based race field fees, Betfair Australia increased the base rate of commission from 5% to 6.5% on Australian horseracing. This change in pricing structure was the driver of the increase in horseracing revenue. The revenue growth, however, was insufficient to cover the increased race field fees and our share of underlying operating profits reduced to £1.4m (FY12: £2.4m).

Its all available in their last annual report. They even made a profit in the Australian region.

So even if the markets are not there earlier for the "traders" they are still at least matching as much as they were through the previous years and growing.

The exchange isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

[stugots]

Exactly UB.

& if Packer & Co use a bit of nouse & tweak the Australian model a bit & ******** off the PC charges, we could well see the exchange evolve.

Another thing which hasnt been raised as far as I know, is that Pinnacle will have to deal with the upcoming race field fee increases the same as all other corps.

The second coming they may be...or not.

[Mark]

Funnily enough I spoke to someone from Pinnacle several weeks ago, as did Pat, and some others I'm guessing, and I did not get the same story or feeling that Pat is talking up. In fact I was told that Pinnacle would not be able to help me, as an arber, at all. Honestly, I don't know what to think.

[Pat123]

That assumes all their fixed odds will be of lower value than Betfair 100% of the time.

[Mark]

No, it assumes nothing, just reporting what I was told. I hope they do offer great odds and ban nobody, I just can't see it happening myself.

[Pat123]

Well given the definition of an arb and that you've been told it won't help arbers, it does. I guess we shall see.

[FredTheMug]

Funnily enough I spoke to someone from Pinnacle several weeks ago, as did Pat, and some others I'm guessing, and I did not get the same story or feeling that Pat is talking up. In fact I was told that Pinnacle would not be able to help me, as an arber, at all. Honestly, I don't know what to think.

My understanding is that a sharp bookie is not useful for arbing horses. For sports, you still need one or more un-sharp bookies to take the other side and not ban you.

[Pat123]

Just from my own experience I used to arb with the main Pinnacle site on sports all the time, especially tennis matches when first put up.

With regards to arbs alone - i've never come across a sharp bookie. For me, that would just mean copying betfair odds. I've seen a multitude of arbs across every bookmaker i've ever used.

[FredTheMug]

Just from my own experience I used to arb with the main Pinnacle site on sports all the time, especially tennis matches when first put up.

With regards to arbs alone - i've never come across a sharp bookie. For me, that would just mean copying betfair odds. I've seen a multitude of arbs across every bookmaker i've ever used.

You're right Pat, I realised what I was saying was wrong for sports and edited my message just as you replied. :)

I've come across bookies that were relatively sharp in one or more racing codes.

[Chrome Prince]

This is all really puzzling.
Of course Betfair revenue is up, they are covering more races, trots and greyhounds than they ever have and added more inplay options on those races.
Then they have increased premium charges and levies.
Revenue is not profit.
Any company that reports revenue rise is playing smoke and mirrors to it's shareholders.

Revenue minus total expenses is profit.

Liquidity is down, both here and in the UK, the gaps between back and lay prices and market percentages in all but the last two minutes tell the story.

[stugots]

& yet BF still provides on average the best prices if you are a backer, & the option to lay if that floats your boat. & do not ban.

Maybe BF is slowly but surely going down the gurgler, maybe not, will worry about it when I wake up one morning & cannot logon. Until then will continue to enjoy getting prices I cannot get anywhere else.

[FredTheMug]

will worry about it when I wake up one morning & cannot logon.

That happened to me a few times when I was getting started, quite distressing. With Betfair's future uncertain, best not leave more money than absolutely needed in BF accounts.

[UselessBettor]

That happened to me a few times when I was getting started, quite distressing. With Betfair's future uncertain, best not leave more money than absolutely needed in BF accounts.
Who says its uncertain? Betfair are making a profit. They are not going anywhere.

[FredTheMug]

I meant Betfair Australia, which isn't making a profit. But yeah I was being dramatic.

[stugots]

I meant Betfair Australia, which isn't making a profit. But yeah I was being dramatic.


Betfair Australia is a 50:50 joint venture between Betfair and Crown Limited. Net revenue was up 13% in the year, driven by a 23% increase in Australian racing revenues. Following the decision of certain states to implement turnover-based race field fees, Betfair Australia increased the base rate of commission from 5% to 6.5% on Australian horseracing. This change in pricing structure was the driver of the increase in horseracing revenue. The revenue growth, however, was insufficient to cover the increased race field fees and our share of underlying operating profits reduced to £1.4m (FY12: £2.4m).

[UselessBettor]

I meant Betfair Australia, which isn't making a profit. But yeah I was being dramatic.
As stugots just showed. They made roughly 4-5million Australian dollars profit (covert from pounds to aussie dollar). Its obviously going just fine and growing each year.

[FredTheMug]

I apologise, I was wrong. I read the following article on the SMH website which reported a $1.6m loss for year ending April 2013 and assumed they were talking about the AU operation:

http://www.smh.com.au/business/crowns-move-on-betfair-shortens-odds-on-james-packer-wagering-play-20140318-3506r.html

I wouldn't have a clue how to interpret an annual report so thanks for the correction.

[UselessBettor]

I apologise, I was wrong. I read the following article on the SMH website which reported a $1.6m loss for year ending April 2013 and assumed they were talking about the AU operation:

http://www.smh.com.au/business/crowns-move-on-betfair-shortens-odds-on-james-packer-wagering-play-20140318-3506r.html

I wouldn't have a clue how to interpret an annual report so thanks for the correction.

That article is so incorrect. The year before betfair made the following in its annual report:



Share of income from joint venture – Betfair Australia
Betfair Australia generated 21% revenue growth (in local currency), driven
by a strong horseracing performance and improved monetisation of Exchange
activity. Revenue growth was driven by higher ARPU following an increased focus
on higher value customers.
The joint venture achieved a breakeven result for
the first time. Our reported share of the venture’s net operating profit was
£4.3m (FY11: loss of £0.9m). Excluding the £1.9m one-off net benefit of a sales
tax refund and costs associated with the High Court appeal our share of
operating profit was £2.4m.

So betfair is making lots of money year in and year out. The SMH reporter must not have done their research properly (which took a whole 5 seconds).

[stugots]

So betfair is making lots of money year in and year out. The SMH reporter must not have done their research properly (which took a whole 5 seconds).


Now can we think of any reasons why a paper would incorrectly report such a thing? Hmm, let me take 5 seconds to come up with half a dozen;)

[UselessBettor]

Now can we think of any reasons why a paper would incorrectly report such a thing? Hmm, let me take 5 seconds to come up with half a dozen;)
I was thinking it but I didn't say it

[Pat123]

Testing continuing this week. Same policies as Pinnacle wordwide site. Placed my first bet!

<a href="http://imgur.com/qib95vQ"><img src="http://i.imgur.com/qib95vQ.png" title="Hosted by imgur.com" /></a>

[stugots]

Do you know when they go live Pat?

[stugots]

Line looks right odds look right, if they maintain that & dont limit they will quickly garner business - for example with the only online bookie I pay attention to at the moment -

$2 Lines Manly Sea Eagles - -4.0 @ 2.00
$2 Lines Canterbury Bulldogs - +4.0 @ 2.00
Even money lines for ENTIRE NRL season. NO MULTIS, MAX BET $200 (1 wager per client per match).


Now I am not a regular sports bettor but when I have a go, I have a go & I dunno about anyone else around this place but $200 wasnt a big bet amount 20 years ago when I started to get serious about all this - $200 limits in 2014 are a joke.

[Pat123]

Like I said they are aiming to go live in time for the world cup.

[Pat123]

I would love if a MEMO was sent out to all the bookmakers that limit warning them of the impending competition :P

[UselessBettor]

as if they care., the people they want are those who lose and only bet on their teams. Pinnacle won't advertise to them on tv so they won't pick up any of the easy money. It won't make a difference.

[Pat123]

Yeah it probably won't make a big dent I must admit.

[Chrome Prince]

Just cannot get my head around how they are going to offer horseracing.
They must pay a levy and if they start putting up markets at 102%, they will get taken to the cleaners by the sharp guys. Even with staggered limits.
My guess is they will do some sort of ANTEPOST, but that's it for major Metro races, but still, it's going to be very interesting.

[Pat123]

It will be interesting. Looking forward to the day I can click on the racing tab.

[stugots]

Like I said they are aiming to go live in time for the world cup.

Thanks, I should have clarified - live for the nags - assume it will all be at the same time.

[Pat123]

Yeah and racing supposedly 2 weeks after they go public.

[Pat123]

Should be launching Friday.

[Pat123]

Launched!

<a href="http://imgur.com/Bsh9fSP"><img src="http://i.imgur.com/Bsh9fSP.jpg" title="Hosted by imgur.com" /></a>

[UselessBettor]

Well that launch didn't go well. Lots of 404 errors on links.

[Pat123]

Works for me..

https://www.pinnaclebet.com.au/

[UselessBettor]

Yeah have you actually clicked on anything.

https://www.pinnaclebet.com.au/undefined/sport/

That throws a 404 error and that's from clicking a link on the first page.

And there is more then 1 broken link.

https://www.pinnaclebet.com.au/info/bestOdds/undefined/racing/

https://www.pinnaclebet.com.au/info/bestOdds/undefined/contact-us

Poor coding for the site doesn't give me much confidence in them.

[UselessBettor]

Maybe it works cause you have an account t but no one without an account can see a thing .... lol.... hopeless

[UselessBettor]

I worked it out. It doesn't work in half the browsers I have. It only works in one of them.

Perhaps they need to assess that not everyone uses the same browser.

[garyf]

In July when racing starts I wonder what,
They will offer product wise for "NON METROPOLITAN",
Races held in AUSTRALIA.

If it's the BO3 totes & fixed odds betting with their,
Current spiel on nobody is barred then I will be aboard.

Cheers.

[Pat123]

I've got an account and use chrome. There still may be a few glitches but I haven't had any issues yet.

[Pat123]

Pinnaclebet is 1x deposit turnover for laundering reasons.

[Pat123]

No news on the racing product. It was supposed to be brought out 2 weeks into the world cup. Maybe they have given up on the idea!

[Rinconpaul]

No news on the racing product. It was supposed to be brought out 2 weeks into the world cup. Maybe they have given up on the idea!
Why doesn't that surprise me? I opened an account with them this week, and still haven't been able to place a sports bet! I need to verify my account but every time I try, the screen reverts from Account Info to the Home page. They've suspended my account pending the IT dept sorting it. The IT guru must be away, as they're in no hurry to sort it. Maybe he's out here in Australia? Wish he'd get back home sometime soon.... :(

[Chrome Prince]

I'd suggest their plan has been thwarted by the realization that they have to pay turnover tax to the various racing bodies. They may still go ahead, but it's also one hell of a programming job when their entire platform is completely different to any other bookie.

[stugots]

They couldn't have been that naive/ill informed could they?

Whichever, it's an inauspicious start.

[Pat123]

According to the head of pinnaclebet racing is 100% still happening, it's just a matter of when, they said hopefully within a month.

[Mark]

I'm confused Pat. Why do you need Pinnacle as you've already stated that you have a bookie (unnamed) that bets top odds, lets you on for any amounts and will not ban you.

[Pat123]

Bigger takes :) i dont get let on for any amount atm

[Rinconpaul]

Just seen this on the web, not sure how accurate and if true, what has caused it:

" Due to changes to British gambling licensing regulations, Pinnacle Sports will after September 30th, 2014, be unable to offer services "

Now this is the parent company, not the Aus version.

What's going on??

[Pat123]

People in the UK just can't use Pinnacle Sports from that date. Nothing to do with Aus site.

[stugots]

Licencing issue.


http://www.online-betting.me.uk/blog/pinnacle-latest-operator-to-close-gb-facing-business.html

Online betting site Pinnacle are set to become the latest operator to announce that they are ready to pull out of the British market. This is over the controversial Point of Consumption licensing regime installed by the British Government, where off-shore operators, as most online bookmakers are, suddenly become liable for heavy taxes.
Taxation is placed on any bet received from within the British Isles under the new law, which is supposed to level the playing field so that brick and mortar betting shops in Britain aren’t the only ones facing taxes. Most online bookmakers set up off-shore in places like Gibraltar and Malta to avoid British taxation
Pinnacle released as statement this week, with the Asian operator saying that it would be closing all accounts belonging to customers registered in Great Britain on 30 September – the day before the new licensing framework is due to go live.
“Due to imminent changes to British gambling licensing regulations, Pinnacle Sports will after September 30th, 2014, be unable to offer our services to any players resident in Great Britain,” a statement from the firm read.
“We thank all British players for betting with Pinnacle Sports, and should we obtain a British gambling licence in the future, we would be more than happy to accept your business.”
SBObet, 12Bet and Mansion have already announced that they making adjustments to what they are going to be offering to the British market, pulling select products before the Point of Consumption tax.
According to the Gambling Commission website, Pinnacle has made an application for an operating licence, however, due to the operator’s current Curacao-licensed status, it has been unable to apply for the transitional licences available to whitelisted licensed operators.

[Chrome Prince]

Seems the whole thing is a furphy, with the Caulfield Cup on Saturday, they are still displaying "Coming Soon" for their racing.
I highly doubt they'll make the Carnival at this rate.
I realise it's only Monday, but their server is slow and it looks like no work has been done on the racing section at all.
I'd be happy to be proven wrong though.

[Chrome Prince]

Well shiver me timbers!
Pinnaclebet horseracing is live.
However, they are offering fixed odds @ around 132% and Best Tote @ around 115%.
Might be good news for arbers and those who use bookies, but I thought we'd see a different product with reduced commission :(
Not for me, but others might find a use for it.
Makes me wonder, will they ban successful horseracing punters???

[Lord Greystoke]

It's says 'Winners Welcome', just like Pinnacle Sports.

That would be a bit unique v corporates here yes? Is that why they got hung, drawn and quartered in the UK, Chrome i.e. the other guys could see they had cornered a niche in the market and ganged up on them - forced them out etc??

Cheers LG

[Lord Greystoke]

Just did some checking on odds etc

SA R1 - they are showing odds for NSW / Unitab / STAB

SO .. assuming none of the above would throw you out if you start winning v corporates, how are these guys any different??

Cheers LG

[Chrome Prince]

It's best tote and fixed odds products that throw you out.
However it looks like their sports model is a far cry from their racing model.
Of course some punters will find it a great product, but from my perspective, I can't see any advantage for myself.

[Pat123]

Well shiver me timbers!
Pinnaclebet horseracing is live.
However, they are offering fixed odds @ around 132% and Best Tote @ around 115%.
Might be good news for arbers and those who use bookies, but I thought we'd see a different product with reduced commission :(
Not for me, but others might find a use for it.
Makes me wonder, will they ban successful horseracing punters???

Jesus, never did i think we'd see the day!

I've been told numerous times from the owner and other employees e.g. sandy that they'll never limit or ban. They use winners and actually WANT arbers lol.

[Pat123]

alright so they're just copying topsport's odds lol.

[Mark]

Which means we'll never get a bet on because they are way under the market. Wish I could lay at Topsport prices. :(

[Chrome Prince]

It goes against everything they pride themselves on.
It's obviously cloned software.
I stupidly thought that they'd use the smart money to guide prices (with limits per price) and at reduced commission.
Ergo, the only difference is that they may not ban winners.
So, what's the point if their fixed odds are 132% :eek:

[Pat123]

I spoke to the owner and theyre just copying topsport temporarily then doing their own thing.

[Chrome Prince]

They bet 123% fixed odds on the Caulfield Cup and 109% Best tote & SP.

[Mark]

Betfair SP on the Cup was a tick over 112%. Very nice. ;)

[Pat123]

So is there any benefit to pinnaclebet? Apart from the obvious

[Chrome Prince]

If you're profitable at Best Tote & SP then yes.
Otherwise wait until they do their own markets.
First race at Seymour they were betting over 130% Fixed Odds, hopeless.

[Pat123]

gonna wait til they get established. did a quick comparison to other bookies and their odds look pretty dismal at the moment. i'm sure it will get better with time.

they also have no way of contacting them - live chat down and no working phone number haha. what the?

[Lord Greystoke]

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[Pat123]

Has anyone else got feedback to share?

[Lord Greystoke]

Still no call back from them.

Cheers LG

[Pat123]

At the moment i wont be betting. Betfair is better value. We'll see if they change it up come 12 months with value odds.

[Lord Greystoke]

Still no call back from them.

Cheers LG

Got the call back. Obviously early days but I appreciate the effort from the lads. Will back them based on what I was told i.e. they don't throw winning punters out.

You back us Pinnacle and eventually every man and his dog will back you I reckon. Especially when the word spreads about what your competitors will do/wont do and when your original pricing model kicks in.

Best of luck with takeoff chaps.

Cheers LG