NSW Minimum Bet Limits - Start September 1st, 2014

[Pat123]

It's a start....


Tuesday, 22 July 2014

Minimum Bet Limits

Following extensive consultation with wagering operators and punters, Racing NSW has announced the terms of minimum bet limits that Australian wagering operators will be required to comply with when betting on NSW Thoroughbred races.
Racing NSW Chief Executive, Mr Peter V’landys, said:
“The consultation process with wagering operators and punters was very constructive and informative. Racing NSW carefully assessed the submissions from all parties and has amended its previous proposal in light of those submissions.
“Racing NSW is confident that the conditions announced today are fair and practical for all parties, whether they are wagering operators, professional punters or recreational punters. All punters should be able to place a legitimate bet on NSW Thoroughbred races and should not be discriminated against by having their accounts closed or bets refused simply because they are successful.
“Racing NSW will monitor the conditions to ensure that they are fair and practical for all parties. If warranted, changes may be made periodically to achieve the right balance.”
The key points of the minimum bet limit conditions are as follows:
• Wagering operators are not to take actions such as closing a punter’s accounts, refusing to open a punter’s account or placing restrictions on a punter’s account solely to avoid complying with the minimum bet limit conditions. However, wagering operators are still able to take such actions for legitimate reasons including undisclosed bowlers (persons betting on behalf of other persons), responsible gambling, fraudulent activity, money-laundering and other integrity related reasons such as the punter being warned off or disqualified.
• Wagering operators are required to lay the odds displayed for fixed odds bets to the limits below. The minimum bet limit has been set at levels which are considered to be fair and balanced. Those levels were requested by most punters (although some professional punters requested higher levels) yet are still higher than what was requested by most wagering operators.
For Australian Wagering Operators with Net Assessable Turnover on NSW Thoroughbred races greater than or equal to $5 million
Race type Bet (Win and/or Each Way/*Win & Place)
Metropolitan NSW Thoroughbred races Wagering operator to lose a minimum $2,000 (*place component $800)
Non-Metropolitan NSW Thoroughbred races Wagering operator to lose a minimum $1,000 (*place component $400)

For Australian Wagering Operators with Net Assessable Turnover on NSW Thoroughbred Races less than $5 million
Race type Bet (Win and/or Each Way/*Win & Place)
All NSW Thoroughbred races Wagering operator to lose a minimum $1,000 (*place component $400)
• Recognising differences in the off-course environment where punting can be rapid fire to the point of automation, wagering operators are only required to bet to the limit once per horse for each customer or related customers (where there are bowlers betting on behalf of other persons).
• The minimum bet limit conditions apply to fixed odds bets placed after 9am on the day of the race (2pm for night race meetings) and do not apply in respect of bets placed as part of a betting exchange. They also do not apply to derivative bets such as best tote or exotic bets such as quinellas and trifectas.
• At this stage, the minimum bet limits will not apply to cash (non-account) bets placed in retail outlets, including interstate and NSW TAB agencies, hotels, clubs and pubs, primarily due to the difficulties associated with determining whether a cash bet in a retail outlet is a bowler bet placed on behalf of another person. It is important to note that retail wagering operators will still be required to comply with the minimum bet limits for bets placed by account holders, whether by internet, phone or in the retail outlets.
• Australian wagering operators will be required to comply with the minimum bet limit condition from 1 September 2014.
• Punters who believe that a wagering operator has refused their bet or excluded them in contravention of the minimum bet limit condition should initially raise the matter with the wagering operator to ascertain the reason for the refusal or exclusion. If they remain unsatisfied with the reason provided by the wagering operator, then they should lodge a formal complaint in writing with Racing NSW (minimumbet@racingnsw.com.au). Racing NSW will then investigate the complaint to assess, on the evidence available, whether the wagering operator appears to have breached the minimum bet limit condition and whether the wagering operator should be referred for prosecution.

Source: http://www.racingnsw.com.au/default.aspx?s=article-display&id=16086

[UselessBettor]

Does this apply to best tote, etc ? Im guessing no, only fixed odds.

[Mark]

Does it apply to people who have previously been restricted?
For example can I now re-fund those accounts and from 1/9 bet on NSW fixed odds again?

[Pat123]

Not too sure UB.

For reference purposes, here's the email for complaints: minimumbet@racingnsw.com.au


Can't wait to see if they comply on September 1st. I'm gonna be giving Sportsbet and TAB a go and rip them when they don't let me on for a $5 bet at 1.01

[Pat123]

Does it apply to people who have previously been restricted?
For example can I now re-fund those accounts and from 1/9 bet on NSW fixed odds again?

Yes I believe so. Ladbrokes closed my account for commercial reasons so I am assuming they will legally have to re-open it?

[Pat123]

Love this tweet:


Josh Nelms ‏@joshblackmarket Jul 21
September 1st, Inbox full: minimumbet@racingnsw.com.au
#minimumbetlimits

[stugots]

as pointed out in the other thread, it looks like the corps have an out -

• Wagering operators are not to take actions such as closing a punter’s accounts, refusing to open a punter’s account or placing restrictions on a punter’s account solely to avoid complying with the minimum bet limit conditions. However, wagering operators are still able to take such actions for legitimate reasons including undisclosed bowlers (persons betting on behalf of other persons), responsible gambling, fraudulent activity, money-laundering and other integrity related reasons such as the punter being warned off or disqualified.



What's to stop them declaring any accounts they do not want active as 'undisclosed bowlers' etc, which then forces the punter to complain to racing nsw & somehow prove they are legit?

It's a start but needs to be implemented & enforced consistently across all racing jurisdictions, & I wonder how much time & resources Racing NSW will commit to enforcement.

Love to be glass half full on this, but suspect these weasel corps will do whatever they can to avoid fully complying.

[Pat123]

Just tried putting on a $5 bet for interest sake through the TAB, fixed odds of 2.00. Warning message: "Over limit". What limit is that? $0.00? This was my first bet in 3 months.

Called them up and asked if they were aware of what's happening on September 1st and they were none the wiser. That minimum bet email address is gonna get bombarded in a little over a month! It's time for a change.

[Pat123]

Holy hell! I just had a talk with one of the higher-ups at the TAB regarding the new legislation and he said honestly the TAB bookmakers will find their way around not accepting bets from all customers when a bet is submitted by a non-commercially viable customer... This coming from a guy working at the TAB (William) whom which was reached at 131802.

He also told me to go elsewhere if I want fixed odds and that these new practices of not accepting winning customers bets came into place in February this year. The level of honesty from him was scary.

[stugots]

Well at least they dont insult by pretending they dont ban etc.

It's going to take alot of work to get these limits enforced & until it is a nation wide approach I suspect it just wont work as there are too many loopholes from what I see.

[Pat123]

I'm gonna video tape my bet attempts Sept 1st and send them through to the relevant departments.

[stugots]

Good idea, I would also be recording any conversations you have with them queering why you cannot get on.

[Pat123]

Wish I had have recorded the phone call today (although maybe they did on their end?). He basically admitted they weren't to take on winners from Feb this year.

[Pat123]

NSW Minimum Bet - Rules

PDF: http://www.racingnsw.com.au/site/_content/document/00001213-source.pdf

[Pat123]

Does anyone know whether the min bet rule applies only to over-the-phone fixed odds bets, or is it internet betting (if currently offered by the bookmaker) too?

Thanks.

[PaulD01]

Does anyone know whether the min bet rule applies only to over-the-phone fixed odds bets, or is it internet betting (if currently offered by the bookmaker) too?

Thanks.

Hi Pat123

Not sure on that one. One concern that I do have, that I have been advised of by senior management of a leading corporate is that the accounts are likely to be reopened but that they (this particular group) do not intend to comply with the new Racing NSW mandate. They are of the opinion that:

1. There are no legislative requirements for them to do so given that they are not licensed by Racing NSW; and
2. There are no clear penalties in place for any breach.

So in essence whilst it may be Racing NSW objective to force corporate bookmakers to comply in respect of NSW racing from September 1, there is simply no effective means to compel them to do so. I hope that I am proven wrong.

[Pat123]

Fortunately every bookmaker regardless of where they are licensed have to comply with the min bet rules - this according to Richard Irvine who was involved with the consultation process.

[PaulD01]

Fortunately every bookmaker regardless of where they are licensed have to comply with the min bet rules - this according to Richard Irvine who was involved with the consultation process.

Hi Pat123

Yes I am aware of Richards involvement and views as we have provided some assistance to him in his campaign. The issue is that whilst Racing NSW might say that all bookmakers are compelled to comply with the new rules there is to my understanding currently no legal way of ensuring that they do. That is the problem.

[stugots]

Well assuming that a bookmaker must be licensed by RNSW to operate on NSW races, then surely RNSW will be within their rights to suspend said licence until a bookmaker complies with the new regs.

Bookmaker licensing in New South Wales is the responsibility of the relevant controlling bodies of racing. However, bookmakers may obtain authorities for approved events betting, telephone and electronic betting from the Minister for Gaming and Racing under the Racing Administration Act 1998.


Bookmaker Electronic (Internet) Betting and Approved Premises Betting - Racing NSW policy information

Updated March 2011
Electronic Betting

Bookmakers wishing to conduct electronic betting and obtain Internet access to view prices, transact bets or make bet backs on thoroughbred, harness, greyhound races or approved betting events with licensed wagering operators while fielding at a racecourse or approved betting premise must make application to Racing NSW.

A bookmaker must also apply to the Office of Liquor, Gaming and Racing (OLGR) for an Electronic Betting Authority and/or Betting Back Approval.
If an Electronic Betting Authority is approved by the Minister and an Authorisation is permitted by Racing NSW, bookmakers may view prices, transact bets or bet backs with licensed wagering operators via the Internet utilising an OLGR approved betting system when it is lawful to operate as a bookmaker.

Such approvals are restricted to Bookmakers use on a racecourse, an authorized betting office, betting auditorium or an approved betting premise and are subject to the Rules of Racing (including LR 97A), the Racing NSW Bookmaker Telephone, Electronic Betting and Approved Premises or Authorised Betting Office Standard Conditions and any policies or directions of Racing NSW or conditions of approval of OLGR.
To view Bookmakers Betting Limits please click here

The NSW Bookmaker Electronic Betting Conditions, as approved by the Minister for Gaming and Racing, are issued by OLGR to those bookmakers who have been issued with the relevant Internet Betting Authority. See also section 16 of the Racing Administration Act 1998.

http://www.racingnsw.com.au/default.aspx?s=bookmakers-betting

[PaulD01]

Well assuming that a bookmaker must be licensed by RNSW to operate on NSW races, then surely RNSW will be within their rights to suspend said licence until a bookmaker complies with the new regs.

Bookmaker licensing in New South Wales is the responsibility of the relevant controlling bodies of racing. However, bookmakers may obtain authorities for approved events betting, telephone and electronic betting from the Minister for Gaming and Racing under the Racing Administration Act 1998.


Bookmaker Electronic (Internet) Betting and Approved Premises Betting - Racing NSW policy information

Updated March 2011
Electronic Betting

Bookmakers wishing to conduct electronic betting and obtain Internet access to view prices, transact bets or make bet backs on thoroughbred, harness, greyhound races or approved betting events with licensed wagering operators while fielding at a racecourse or approved betting premise must make application to Racing NSW.

A bookmaker must also apply to the Office of Liquor, Gaming and Racing (OLGR) for an Electronic Betting Authority and/or Betting Back Approval.
If an Electronic Betting Authority is approved by the Minister and an Authorisation is permitted by Racing NSW, bookmakers may view prices, transact bets or bet backs with licensed wagering operators via the Internet utilising an OLGR approved betting system when it is lawful to operate as a bookmaker.

Such approvals are restricted to Bookmakers use on a racecourse, an authorized betting office, betting auditorium or an approved betting premise and are subject to the Rules of Racing (including LR 97A), the Racing NSW Bookmaker Telephone, Electronic Betting and Approved Premises or Authorised Betting Office Standard Conditions and any policies or directions of Racing NSW or conditions of approval of OLGR.
To view Bookmakers Betting Limits please click here

The NSW Bookmaker Electronic Betting Conditions, as approved by the Minister for Gaming and Racing, are issued by OLGR to those bookmakers who have been issued with the relevant Internet Betting Authority. See also section 16 of the Racing Administration Act 1998.

http://www.racingnsw.com.au/default.aspx?s=bookmakers-betting

Hi Stugots

Yes if they are LICENSED by Racing NSW in terms of their bookmakers licence then yes they are required to comply and are governed by the regulatory framework of that states licencing authority. What I'm referring to though is that most of the corporate bookmakers whilst they OPERATE on NSW racing aren't licensed by Racing NSW (most being licensed in the NT). Operating on NSW racing in these situations comes under the Race Fields Legislation that deals with the financial contributions made by those corporate bookmakers as a result of publishing race fields or NSW racing.

[Chrome Prince]

And that is one of the main problems, however, the bigger issues are the loopholes.
Bowlers etc.
If there's a loophole, they'll find it.
There's no way they will allow large winners to continue.

[stugots]

Hi Stugots

Yes if they are LICENSED by Racing NSW in terms of their bookmakers licence then yes they are required to comply and are governed by the regulatory framework of that states licencing authority. What I'm referring to though is that most of the corporate bookmakers whilst they OPERATE on NSW racing aren't licensed by Racing NSW (most being licensed in the NT). Operating on NSW racing in these situations comes under the Race Fields Legislation that deals with the financial contributions made by those corporate bookmakers as a result of publishing race fields or NSW racing.


Suspected that was the case Paul, so what is required is for RNSW to push for changes to the Race Fields Legislation (or whatever else is required) so that all bookmakers located within Australia wishing to bet on NSW racing must be licensed by RNSW.

& if that forces them offshore to keep betting on NSW races, so be it. Got to take the fight up to them, or else what was the point to begin with.

[PaulD01]

Suspected that was the case Paul, so what is required is for RNSW to push for changes to the Race Fields Legislation (or whatever else is required) so that all bookmakers located within Australia wishing to bet on NSW racing must be licensed by RNSW.

& if that forces them offshore to keep betting on NSW races, so be it. Got to take the fight up to them, or else what was the point to begin with.

Hi Stugots
Not a lawyer so can't answer your question as I simply don't know the answer. I do believe though that whilst it may initially prove difficult to get on eventually I'm hoping that through the inevitable consultation process that a compromise is reached. One solution might be to offer the corporate bookmakers some incentives to comply by reducing the Race Fields fees if the have an on course presence, similar to Tabcorp over the VIC carnivals.

[FredTheMug]

Hi Pat123
The issue is that whilst Racing NSW might say that all bookmakers are compelled to comply with the new rules there is to my understanding currently no legal way of ensuring that they do.
So what compels a bookie to pay the race field fees?

According to the Racing Administration Act 1998, Racing NSW has the right to cancel approval to use the race field data, so while they might not be able to prosecute they could shut them down on those races.

[stugots]

So what compels a bookie to pay the race field fees?

According to the Racing Administration Act 1998, Racing NSW has the right to cancel approval to use the race field data, so while they might not be able to prosecute they could shut them down on those races.


Nice one Fred.

Will be lawyers at 20 paces sooner rather than later methinks;)

[FredTheMug]

Will be lawyers at 20 paces sooner rather than later methinks;)
Actually after thinking about it I can see PaulD's point in that they can sue for fees owed, but much harder for RNSW to establish a loss for rejected bets.

We should all keep a log of rejected bets in preparation for our own class action. :)

[Pat123]

They will have to prove beyond doubt you are a bowler to racing nsw. For legitimate bettors this shouldn't be an issue apart from the initial inconvenience?

[stugots]

They will have to prove beyond doubt you are a bowler to racing nsw. For legitimate bettors this shouldn't be an issue apart from the initial inconvenience?


Other way around I think, punter has to prove he is not a bowler, & as I posted before, I would be most interested to know how one goes about proving that.

[Pat123]

I'd think innocent until proven guilty. Richard Irvine says the onus to prove bowler status is on the bookie. What a sad state of affairs we're even talking about this.

UK bookmakers are sickening.

[The Ocho]

So what compels a bookie to pay the race field fees?

According to the Racing Administration Act 1998, Racing NSW has the right to cancel approval to use the race field data, so while they might not be able to prosecute they could shut them down on those races.
I remember Betdaq (the opposition to Betfair) was listing Oz racing without paying any fees. They were soon stopped.

[Pat123]

I remember Betdaq (the opposition to Betfair) was listing Oz racing without paying any fees. They were soon stopped.

Lol! Why can't we use Betdaq?

[The Ocho]

Lol! Why can't we use Betdaq?
For UK races you can but not for the Aussie racing as they were barred from listing the race fields I think. Maybe a company can only include Aussie racing if they have an office here? I don't know.

[stugots]

I'd think innocent until proven guilty. Richard Irvine says the onus to prove bowler status is on the bookie. What a sad state of affairs we're even talking about this.

UK bookmakers are sickening.


both them & the greedy shortsighted NT Govt that has allowed all this to happen, & whos mess it is now leaving up to others to sort out

[Pat123]

So Australians can now use Betdaq? I remember trying to sign up a year ago and it said sorry your country is not permitted etc.

[Chrome Prince]

Yes Pat our country is banned by Betdaq even for overseas horseracing following the trouble they got into for putting up Australian race fields.
They have banned the country now.

[Pat123]

So apparently Sportsbet have already started betting to the new 2k limits etc. Can anyone confirm this from NSW races today? I read this on twitter from a punter.

[Mark]

So apparently Sportsbet have already started betting to the new 2k limits etc. Can anyone confirm this from NSW races today? I read this on twitter from a punter.

Not for this little black duck.

[darkydog2002]

Ah .Your always good for a giggle Mark.
Made my day.
Thanks.

[Pat123]

Not for me either! Maybe this guy doesn't have any limits to begin with. lol.

[Pat123]

Went on sportsbet chat and they said 9am monday

[Mark]

Will believe it when I can place a bet.

[Pat123]

Anyone here have a Sportingbet account?

[Pat123]

LOL! Check this email from Ladbrokes where you have to fill in a form and basically re-apply for a "limited account":



Hi Patrick

​Thank you for contacting Ladbrokes.com.au

Thank you for applying for a limited account under the NSW Race Fields Legislation.

In order to assess your application for account re-activation you will be required to supply the information listed below.

- Completed Account Re-Activation Form (Attached)
- Certified Copy of Drivers Licence or Passport
- Copy of Credit Card (Front and Back)
- Copy of Credit Card Statement
- Copy of Utility Bill showing address of account

Once all documents have been received, the application will be reviewed and assessed.

NOTE: You maybe required to register your Devices with us (maximum of 2 devices). We will be contact to arrange this in due course.

Outcome of the application will notified within 10 working days.

Should you have any questions please contact support.


Kind Regards


Adrian
Customer Support

[stugots]

Dunno about any of you, but there is no way I would be supplying that type of personal info to a bookmaker. & 'register devices', err yeah right...

So I assume that is the corps new strategy - make the process as invasive as possible in the hope most people will just walk away from them.

[FredTheMug]

NOTE: You maybe required to register your Devices with us (maximum of 2 devices).

I was using one of the bookie ipad apps the other day and it wouldn't work unless I allowed it to track my location. I guess it's to stop one person using multiple devices with bowler accounts.

Pretty invasive, but if that's what they have to do to protect themselves and stay in business, then I suppose it's not unreasonable.

[Chrome Prince]

Knew it, more hurdles than Sally Pearson!!!
In my case, I don't have and have never had a passport and all utility bills are in someone else's name. Plus you need to have the same IP address, so cannot use a remote server, and there is no way I'd be showing them details of the credit card statement. They want to know who else you are betting with, and in what amounts.

What they want amounts to open access to your complete personal details.
There is a huge risk of identity theft, by anyone able to access the personal details, whether it be a sacked member of the organisation or one of their "friends".

10 day turnaround, if they say no, they still have you on the database and that information will go on the merry go round.

Forget it, from my point of view.

[stugots]

CP the identity theft issues alone are reason enough not to go anywhere near this ****, some of the most supposedly secure of organisations are regularly compromised & they seriously expect people to hand that info over?

So this is just clearly a way to discourage & it looks like there might be better options out there anyway - off twitter -

Richard Irvine @riracing · Aug 29
Had my account reopened by all Corporates except Bet365. They refuse to. What a lovely, community minded organisation. Better go dob to RNSW


& this just for laughs...

Richard Irvine @riracing · Aug 24
Heard that William Hill's $700 million investment in Australia has been revalued at $320 million. Don't you just hate deductions!

[FredTheMug]

That river of gold from AU->UK got cut in half... oh the humanity!

[Pat123]

BET365 has since re-opened Richard Irvine's account.

[Pat123]

Might just leave Ladbrokes for now. They're the only ones who have closed my account anyway. They're really hell bent on blocking winners aren't they..

[Rinconpaul]

.....In my case, I don't have and have never had a passport and all utility bills are in someone else's name.

Whoops.....I'd keep stuff like that quiet, if I was you CP, especially when you've posted in a thread titled, "Where's CP gone?":


1st November 2013, 08:23 PM

Very nice to be noticed missing, I had to go overseas urgently due to some family trauma, but I'm back and will be contributing to the forum.
Many thanks to all who were concerned and curious.

I guess that confirms it, our border control is pretty slack.... :)

[Mark]

This has got to be bullshot.
I can see all the complaints about these "bookies" being tied up in court for years.
You should refuse to supply anything and email Racing NSW. I'm sure this would not be part of the deal. And everyone should do it until they are hounded out of the country. Leeches.

[stugots]

Whoops.....I'd keep stuff like that quiet, if I was you CP, especially when you've posted in a thread titled, "Where's CP gone?":


1st November 2013, 08:23 PM

Very nice to be noticed missing, I had to go overseas urgently due to some family trauma, but I'm back and will be contributing to the forum.
Many thanks to all who were concerned and curious.

I guess that confirms it, our border control is pretty slack.... :)



Tassie is overseas RP, last time I checked anyway;)

[Chrome Prince]

Whoops.....I'd keep stuff like that quiet, if I was you CP, especially when you've posted in a thread titled, "Where's CP gone?":


1st November 2013, 08:23 PM

Very nice to be noticed missing, I had to go overseas urgently due to some family trauma, but I'm back and will be contributing to the forum.
Many thanks to all who were concerned and curious.

I guess that confirms it, our border control is pretty slack.... :)

That is true RP, I don't have an Australian passport, should have mentioned that part, I have an Irish passport, which they will not accept. I was born in Australia, but my late father was Irish, and both my grandparents. I have an Irish passport due to Irish generation law which enables me to travel England, Ireland and most other countries without the restrictions that an Australian passport draws. That's about as much as I can say on that matter. Because I have an Australian Birth Certificate, am an Australian Citizen, most places including banking institutions reject my Irish passport.
I've tried to explain Irish generation law, but they just don't get it. Hence when I say I don't have a passport, I mean an Australian passport - never had one.

[Pat123]

This has got to be bullshot.
I can see all the complaints about these "bookies" being tied up in court for years.
You should refuse to supply anything and email Racing NSW. I'm sure this would not be part of the deal. And everyone should do it until they are hounded out of the country. Leeches.

Yep, already done!

Btw, if anyone has any issues contact: cwilson@racingnsw.com.au

[Chrome Prince]

Anyone got Samuel L Jackson's email address??? :D

[stugots]

One issue to consider - ever had to get documents certified by a JP to open a betting account?

Not this little black duck...

[Pat123]

Anyone got Samuel L Jackson's email address??? :D

The ACCC has his email address I heard.

[Chrome Prince]

Hey Pat,
Any info on Pinnacle horseracing yet?
I see they have horseracing terms and conditions and bet types, but that Coming Soon... page is still there?

[Pat123]

13 days ago i was told "we're close and looking forward to tearing it up". I've asked the guy way too many times now whats the update on racing so won't ask again.

I'd suggest phoning them or going on chat.

[Pat123]

Hey Pat,
Any info on Pinnacle horseracing yet?
I see they have horseracing terms and conditions and bet types, but that Coming Soon... page is still there?

Do you know if those terms and conds were recently put up or were they there from the start?

[Chrome Prince]

Thanks Pat.

[FredTheMug]

Well.... TAB just rejected my $20 bet on Grafton, to win $64.

[stugots]

Guess they didn't get the memo...

[Chrome Prince]

Doesn't surprise me at all, it's going to be a toothless tiger for sure.
A punter is going to have to take them to court and even if he wins, they'll find a wiggle clause to stop him.
Prove that you are not a bowler etc.

[Pat123]

Well.... TAB just rejected my $20 bet on Grafton, to win $64.

Video record your next rejected bet and email your complaint to the email addresses I provided. They're not allowed to reject bets.

[Pat123]

Ok,

So I just tried placing a $5 bet through TAB and Sportsbet - BOTH REJECTED!

[Pat123]

Centrebet and Sportingbet both quoting reduced odds when logged in which changed back when logged out.

What

The

F.

[Chrome Prince]

Remember my reference to the "Wiggles", if you're allowed on, it will be at ridiculous odds. The corporates are savvy at loopholes.
Come 1st September, today, they aren't suddenly open the floodgates to winners. It doesn't behove them to do this. It is what it is, it looked good on paper and the toothless tiger will do nothing about it.
They have to let you on NSW racing, but you'll get the worst dividend.

In summary, nothing has changed, nor is likely to in the foreseeable future unfortunately.

[Pat123]

Sportsbet are now letting me on over the net - had to call up though! Luxbet you have to email customer service. TAB phone lines are backed up.

[stugots]

How are the odds though Pat?

[Pat123]

Wouldn't know. I'm too busy calling TAB and Luxbet - both are still refusing to take bets and Luxbet won't even provide the fixed odds option.

[stugots]

Richard Irvine ‏@riracing 1m
I'm betting with Lux, Sportingbet, Sportsbet, Bet365 and Betstar. All are betting me and being fair.

[Pat123]

Tom W and Sportsbet complying so far.

[Pat123]

Richard Irvine ‏@riracing 1m
I'm betting with Lux, Sportingbet, Sportsbet, Bet365 and Betstar. All are betting me and being fair.

Ofcourse they are! He's richard irvine lol.

[stugots]

no doubt that helps his cause

[Pat123]

Just saw my first post min bet Arb through Sportsbet on no. 4 Grafton R8.

That's enough for me! Just gotta be bothered to fill out those forms for the other jokers like tab and luxbet.

*and no.9.

[Pat123]

Anyone here previously barred from Luxbet fixed odds and has since had NSW fixed re-instated?

[Mark]

Managed a small bet today....on Sandown!
Fixed odds are back for me with Sportsbet.
Still waiting for 365 and refuse to go through all the lads ********e, for now anyway.

[Pat123]

Sportsbet of all bookies are leading the way.

[stugots]

Tom Waterhouse's mob not playing ball apparently -

Richard Irvine
‏@riracing
Hill's now quoting me unders. Tom's first big move as CEO; to defy regulators & refuse to allow any punters to win. Interesting times ahead.

[stugots]

& I see this comment on the TW website -

Note: Prices are indicative only until login and may change before the bet is accepted

I thought the new NSW reg's were supposed to prevent these ********ers from doing exactly that & the price you see is the price you get...

[Pat123]

Tom Waterhouse's mob not playing ball apparently -

Richard Irvine
‏@riracing
Hill's now quoting me unders. Tom's first big move as CEO; to defy regulators & refuse to allow any punters to win. Interesting times ahead.

Racing NSW are well aware of what they're doing now - I just spoke to them over the phone.

[stugots]

Take On Tom - lol

[Pat123]

Take On Tom - lol

If They Allow - lol

[stugots]

Tom Waterhouse A Tease...

[stugots]

Interestingly I have heard today that these pommy & irish invaders didnt bring these 'limiting/closing' practices with them - once they got here they began to follow the lead of a local corp who's name may or may not have been mentioned in recent posts...

[Pat123]

On another note, how good is Sportsbet (at the moment). Never thought I'd say that.

[evajb001]

Pat whilst i'm not banned anywhere, are the odds they are offering the same as if you were not previously a banned member with sportsbet?

Limiting and banning aside, i've always found Sportsbet to be good to deal with in terms of any account issues, getting free bets, having errors fixed, ease of website use etc etc.

[Pat123]

Pat whilst i'm not banned anywhere, are the odds they are offering the same as if you were not previously a banned member with sportsbet?

Limiting and banning aside, i've always found Sportsbet to be good to deal with in terms of any account issues, getting free bets, having errors fixed, ease of website use etc etc.

The odds are the same yep. I haven't seen a decrease in value of odds and they've put it on the record they won't tier accounts like the william hill ********bags.

[Mark]

Who am I?
I claim to be one of the biggest bookies in the world.
Yes I do give opening bonuses.
I claim to bet top odds.
I have banned many punters.
I have agreed to bet to NSW rules.
To get around this I will say "sorry the odds have changed" when you try to place a bet and not let you on for anything.
I will do this every time you try to place a bet.
Who am I?

[Pat123]

TOM WATERHOUSE?

[Mark]

The correct answer is of course...take your pick.
ps have never been banned by Tom because he's always unders.

[stugots]

TW refusing to follow RNSW bet limits etc, so off to court they go.

[Pat123]

Are they actually going to court??

[stugots]

What other option would they have if they want to keep their licence?

[Pat123]

Richard irvine said they are taking rnsw to court so they can continue to offer different odds to different customers. Richard said this could really backfire.

[Chrome Prince]

Richard irvine said they are taking rnsw to court so they can continue to offer different odds to different customers. Richard said this could really backfire.

He's right, it could implode!
Potentially unfair trading practices.
ACCC could get involved.

[Chrome Prince]

For those interested, have just had a chat with Pinnacle.
Looks like they are going to be up and running not until Carnival time, so late October.

"We will be offering racing product soon, we are targeting this before the carnival season"

Given that no date was given, simply Carnival time, I'd suggest they have no idea of an actual launch date as yet.

[stugots]

He's right, it could implode!
Potentially unfair trading practices.
ACCC could get involved.


ACCC should have been involved yonks ago, toothless tiger that lot.


& as discussed elsewhere, a ruling in RNSW favour will/should be the stepping stone for these regulations to be adopted nationwide so bring the court action on I say.

William Hill are playing a dangerous game here & I hope they get royally shafted. If they have to pack up & go back to where they came from, I hope they take TW with them & good riddance to bad rubbish.

[darkydog2002]

The ACCC wont get involved unless a complaint is laid.

[stugots]

Plenty of complaints were made DD & nothing done.

[darkydog2002]

Were they to the ACCC Though.?

[Rinconpaul]

Were they to the ACCC Though.?

The only thing the ACCC will do is thank you for your complaint and refer you to Beyondblue and Lifeline!

I'm talking from experience. They're not a toothless tiger, just an under resourced one, with plenty of complaints to sort through, like carbon tax, bank charges, etc. Punters are low on the priority list, just seen as gamblers and deserve what they get! .....Not my viewpoint, but one shared by many, as gambling isn't seen as an 'honest' living. Ever noticed at a party, when someone asks, what you do for a living? "Yeah, I'm a gambler"......("whisper, whisper....one of those desperate types" snicker, snicker)

Nowaday's, I just say,"I'm unemployed!"

[blackdog1]

Nowaday's, I just say,"I'm unemployed!"I say I'm a 'turf accountant, room for a pony!'

[FredTheMug]

Punters are low on the priority list, just seen as gamblers and deserve what they get! .....Not my viewpoint, but one shared by many, as gambling isn't seen as an 'honest' living. Ever noticed at a party, when someone asks, what you do for a living? "Yeah, I'm a gambler"......("whisper, whisper....one of those desperate types" snicker, snicker)

Nowaday's, I just say,"I'm unemployed!"

Agree 100%.

But imagine how the problem sounds to an outsider... "waah, I want to get rich without working, and those bookies aren't helping me. The government should force them go broke so that I can get rich!"

I just say that I am retired. Which is true - this is just one of my hobbies. :)

[Pat123]

For those interested, have just had a chat with Pinnacle.
Looks like they are going to be up and running not until Carnival time, so late October.

"We will be offering racing product soon, we are targeting this before the carnival season"

Given that no date was given, simply Carnival time, I'd suggest they have no idea of an actual launch date as yet.

They have been ready to go for ages. The owner is being held up by other parties taking their sweet time. He didn't specify who but he mentioned "red tape".

[Chrome Prince]

I have a feeling that red tape is going to be far more complicated than they anticipate.

[Mark]

An open letter to Bet365.

Dear bet365

You were right to limit my place bets on $10 chances to $4.30 & $3.87, as I must be some sort of punting genius (can't see it myself), although how you came to those amounts is beyond me. Even though they were both unplaced and you would have profited times 10 what you did, you are living up to your hype of being one of the biggest bookies in the world. But limiting my next bet to 80c is surely a bad joke. No, indeed it is you that are the joke. Get out of the game before you embarrass yourself further.

PS I rang my 12yo nephew who let me on for the rest of the bet. I now owe him $18.20. Rumour is he split it with his 9yo brother.

[Pat123]

LUXBET and TAB still outright refusing $5 fixed odds bets @ 1.10

They are fully not complying.

[stugots]

lol, good one Mark

Courage knows no bounds, just ask any corporate bookmaker;)

[Rinconpaul]

LUXBET and TAB still outright refusing $5 fixed odds bets @ 1.10

They are fully not complying.


I don't get it?

I normally never listen to the races, just watch mute, so I'm not influenced by any hype. After I reached my target for the day I switched the volume on and listened to, "...so many thousand this and so many thousand that" wagered on TAB.com.....You blokes are telling me you can't get 5 bucks on....like I said, "I don't get it?"

Somebody must be wagering BIG, to get the pool sizes they're showing, they can't all be sub $5 bets? Are all these big wager's, novice first time bettors, with no prior betting pattern revealed?.....I don't think so?

I guess what I'm leading too here is, if someone was to take the TAB/Bookies to task over bet refusal, they'll just show all these big bets that they have taken. Dunno? You'll never beat them!

[Chrome Prince]

I don't get it?
Dunno? You'll never beat them!

It's called a furphy.
Look it up on Wikipedia.
NOBODY is allowed on for those amounts, they are a lure to get the mugs to follow suit.
Simples.

There are plenty of losing punters that can't get $100 on anything with the corporates.

[Rinconpaul]

It's called a furphy.
Look it up on Wikipedia.
.

Furphy:...an erroneous or improbable story.

Mmmh.......?

Something like this perhaps, sums it up, an extract from a 2013 post I came across:

"....Maureen asked me the other day about these "big bets" that are spruiked by the likes of sportingbet etc. who are these people that are "allowed" to place these types of bets?? wish i had an answer for her!!."

[FredTheMug]

TAB will let a losing account on for thousands, so long as they don't profile as an arber.

[darkydog2002]

My feeling with all this is....
Do you honestly believe that if people were "really" putting $5000 - $10000 on a horse be posting and whinging about it not being accepted on here.

Methinks their Drxxxxxg.

[Chrome Prince]

TAB will let a losing account on for thousands, so long as they don't profile as an arber.
Not on Fixed Odds, which they are spruiking, you can have much as you like in the tote pool.

[FredTheMug]

Not on Fixed Odds, which they are spruiking, you can have much as you like in the tote pool.

I've heard differently, and that leaked powerpoint at the start of the year implied otherwise. It's difficult to prove either way.

[blackdog1]

I've heard differently, and that leaked powerpoint at the start of the year implied otherwise. It's difficult to prove either way.I don't know? I'm not welcome on LxBet which is the fixed arm of tab but I can put as much as I like on the tote.
Of course my bets are in the hundreds not thousands so that maybe the reason I have no problem?

Can't see any reason why they would not except any amount on the tote?
Makes no sense, it's after all a totalizator agency the more you bet the more they earn with 0 risk to them. Different with the fixed odds a smart punter can really hurt them.

[FredTheMug]

I don't know? I'm not welcome on LxBet which is the fixed arm of tab but I can put as much as I like on the tote.
Of course my bets are in the hundreds not thousands so that maybe the reason I have no problem?

Can't see any reason why they would not except any amount on the tote?
Makes no sense, it's after all a totalizator agency the more you bet the more they earn with 0 risk to them. Different with the fixed odds a smart punter can really hurt them.

Sorry I wasn't clear, I was referring to fixed odds at TAB. I was saying that TAB will let losing accounts placed fixed odds bets in the thousands, so long as you don't profile as a winner (arbing, betting on firmers, etc). No hard evidence, just anecdotal stuff that I've been told. Those "big bets" that they publish don't sound fake to me.

Yeah they don't restrict betting into the tote pools, just fixed odds.

[Chrome Prince]

Those "big bets" that they publish don't sound fake to me.


Not wishing to create a problem, but I am not winning on fixed odds, so I decided to do a test.
They publish the big bets, so I simply followed them and was rejected.
I am not a longterm winning customer with them, but am elsewhere.
I covered them on Betfair, and came out winning anyway, laying :D

[Mark]

Ooooh Ladbrokens you big brave bookies you. I wanted $100 on the moto GP, they let me have.........wait for it..........$6. Yep, $6 on a $9 chance.
Needless to say the rest has gone to the 12yo nephew. He'll be huge one day.

[FredTheMug]

Not wishing to create a problem, but I am not winning on fixed odds, so I decided to do a test.
They publish the big bets, so I simply followed them and was rejected.
I am not a longterm winning customer with them, but am elsewhere.
I covered them on Betfair, and came out winning anyway, laying :D

I can think of a few possibilities, most likely that your account isn't a losing account, rather an unknown account with respect to fixed odds.

The bigger anomaly in my mind is why you aren't winning (or betting) on TAB fixed odds. :)

[Pat123]

William Hill owned bookies now putting a note on each race:

Note: Prices are indicative only until login and may change before the bet is accepted


If I were in charge of writing that note, I'd word it quite differently.

[Chrome Prince]

I can think of a few possibilities, most likely that your account isn't a losing account, rather an unknown account with respect to fixed odds.

The bigger anomaly in my mind is why you aren't winning (or betting) on TAB fixed odds. :)

I use Betfair primarily, and have done some fixed odds arbs, ergo, I'm, losing with Fixed Odds but winning with Betfair.
P.S. I arb differently to most.

[Rinconpaul]

"....Maureen asked me the other day about these "big bets" that are spruiked by the likes of sportingbet etc. who are these people that are "allowed" to place these types of bets?? wish i had an answer for her!!."

Got Maureen to see how the BIG bets went on Saturday. Fluoro highlighted selections won:

[FredTheMug]

I use Betfair primarily, and have done some fixed odds arbs, ergo, I'm, losing with Fixed Odds but winning with Betfair.
P.S. I arb differently to most.

That's amazing, sounds like the holy grail of arbing. Good to know that TAB haven't limited you just for profiling like an arber (high number of bets). Years ago a corporate shut me down after losing 8k, just because I was doing a few hundred bets a day.


RP, that image is illegible. Did TAB come out on top?

[Rinconpaul]

RP, that image is illegible. Did TAB come out on top?

I'll try again

[Rinconpaul]

Part 2

[FredTheMug]

Thanks RP, interesting stuff.

[Chrome Prince]

Here's a new one I haven't come across before....

A new tactic from an online bookmaker in the UK.
Withdrew winnings last week and the minimum I could withdraw was $5.00, but I withdrew quite a bit more than that so no problem.

Yesterday I went to withdraw winnings and the minimum I could withdraw was $50.00, and again I withdrew more than that.

Today, I went in to check, not withdraw and now the minimum I can withdraw is $500.00 :eek:

What a different tactic, make this bloke stick around long enough, keep raising the withdrawal limits until he folds.

Never heard or seen this before, but at least I'm not banned.

Will next week be minimum $5,000 ????

Needless to say I'll keep going to the end, but won't be depositing anything ever again.

[FredTheMug]

Here's a new one I haven't come across before....

A new tactic from an online bookmaker in the UK.
Withdrew winnings last week and the minimum I could withdraw was $5.00, but I withdrew quite a bit more than that so no problem.

Yesterday I went to withdraw winnings and the minimum I could withdraw was $50.00, and again I withdrew more than that.

Today, I went in to check, not withdraw and now the minimum I can withdraw is $500.00 :eek:

What a different tactic, make this bloke stick around long enough, keep raising the withdrawal limits until he folds.

Never heard or seen this before, but at least I'm not banned.

Will next week be minimum $5,000 ????

Needless to say I'll keep going to the end, but won't be depositing anything ever again.

The minimum might reset next month. The UK bookies usually charge additional fees for subsequent withdrawals in the same month, so at least you are getting free withdrawals.

[stugots]

current affairs segment on corporates banning etc

https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/19624570/betting-ban/

& then -


Richard Irvine
‏@riracing
Ladbrokes will not re-open my account because I defamed them on Today Tonight. I didn't think telling the truth constitutes defamation??

[Chrome Prince]

Hmmm how can I word this without moderation?
A certain punter used to be a runner for a certain big name gambler.
That runner is employing the same tactics independantly, and perhaps still as a runner as well.
The type of betting employed would flag him easily as not only a winning gambler, but a manipulator of sorts, distorting the market until the last dying seconds.

The tactics of bookmakers is clearly unfair and I'm glad the Senator is looking to change legislation for the rest of us, but this manipulator deserves to be banned imho.

[UselessBettor]

If your going to be a bookie then your going to have to run the risk of runners. If they didn't ban people (or drop the odds) they wouldn't have runners.

[Chrome Prince]

On course is quite different to online. Essentially he is a bona fide bowler.

[Pat123]

On course is quite different to online. Essentially he is a bona fide bowler.

I'm curious - does he make heaps?

[stugots]

May well all be true CP, but as it stands Landbrokes are in breach of their licence with RNSW.

I await an appropriate response from RNSW, which should be suspension of the licence.

[PaulD01]

May well all be true CP, but as it stands Landbrokes are in breach of their licence with RNSW.

I await an appropriate response from RNSW, which should be suspension of the licence.

Hi stugots

Not defending Ladbrokes however they are licensed licensed by the Norfolk Island Gaming Authority, Bookmakers and Betting Exchange Act 1998. Accordingly RNSW cannot legally do anything other than to say that they have breached the race fields legislation in respect of the NSW minimum betting limits. The issue is as I have raised before, there isn't any system currently in place that actually stipulates what the penalties for these types of infringements are.

[Pat123]

LOL never thought I'd see the day where Sportsbet double my max bets. Can now win up to $4k on fixed win - or is this normal?

[Mark]

$50 on a $9 shot.........you can have $3.13.
Thank you bet365 you daring devils you.

[Pat123]

$50 on a $9 shot.........you can have $3.13.
Thank you bet365 you daring devils you.

Which race and state?

[Mark]

Bendigo R4, it's just a joke. Bu the joke is on them. The last few weeks I've lost pennies to them away from NSW and won in NSW where it counts.

[Pat123]

Bookies would be loving me since the new NSW rules came in. I've more been doing longer odds arbs and have probably lost $5k so far on the back side. Good to be trading during the day again :)

[Pat123]

Sportsbet back to NSW only bets. Culling people that get overs again. Was good while it lasted!

[Mark]

How are bet365 still in business???

Tried to have a few bets today and they let me on for $2.25 & $1.50. Very brave of them, and they won $3.75 off me, but could easily have had 100 times that amount. Glad I'm not a shareholder as I'd be asking serious questions of the obvious buffoons that run this 2 bit outfit.

[SpeedyBen]

I have an enviable record with Bet 3.65. I was reduced to the 3 dollar bets when I was a member of their UK operation before they were in Oz and had the same happen to me here.

[FredTheMug]

I just received a letter from Tabcorp telling me that my account has been restricted, and that I can't place bets via the Internet. It's a bit strange - I was already limited to practically nothing and hadn't used the account for the past 9 months. The only recent activity was about a month ago when I enquired about the minimum bet limit (unsuccessfully) and then lodged a complaint with Racing NSW.

Has anyone else received this letter?

[Pat123]

I just received a letter from Tabcorp telling me that my account has been restricted, and that I can't place bets via the Internet. It's a bit strange - I was already limited to practically nothing and hadn't used the account for the past 9 months. The only recent activity was about a month ago when I enquired about the minimum bet limit (unsuccessfully) and then lodged a complaint with Racing NSW.

Has anyone else received this letter?

I haven't received any letter although Tabcorp told me i have no chance getting a fixed bet on with them. They told me to bet with someone else.

They changed the way they do business in Feb both online and through facial recognition in physical TABs. Anyone that poses a threat gets shut down.

[Mark]

Here's another one. I went through all the rubbish that Ladbrokes want and received an email saying my a/c had been reinstated according to Racing NSW Legislation. Great I thought. The catch is NO FIXED ODDS on anywhere else. Pathetic.

[FredTheMug]

Here's another one. I went through all the rubbish that Ladbrokes want and received an email saying my a/c had been reinstated according to Racing NSW Legislation. Great I thought. The catch is NO FIXED ODDS on anywhere else. Pathetic.

Well, they're being nicer than TAB - I found out what that letter was about - Racing NSW just informed me that I can bet NSW thoroughbreds on TAB... but only via phone or outlet, not Internet.

Too much hassle for me. I seem to have been banned from the pools via internet as well. The motive seems obvious, but not this is not the right place to express it. :)

[UselessBettor]

They need all other states to follow NSW. Or maybe actually have a national code of conduct for these guys that is enforceable.

[Chrome Prince]

Racing NSW just informed me that I can bet NSW thoroughbreds on TAB... but only via phone or outlet, not Internet.


The loopholes start to come out, and I knew they would.
There's no way they can let consistently winning punters on, their whole business model would implode. So they make it legal, but difficult.
The majority would just ditch it for convenience purposes, just like you Fred.

[UselessBettor]

I haven't received any letter although Tabcorp told me i have no chance getting a fixed bet on with them. They told me to bet with someone else.

They changed the way they do business in Feb both online and through facial recognition in physical TABs. Anyone that poses a threat gets shut down.
Has anyone else noticed Pat has been missing the last month. Pat are you still arbing? Or too hard with too many account closures ?

[Chrome Prince]

I had noticed that UB, and given recent postings everywhere, I'd say the door is just about locked. Perhaps Pat is looking at different ways to arb, arbing but with a different strategy. I'd say given his postings, he'd be far better off just backing on Betfair when he spots arbs, because he did mention his lay side was losing considerably at Betfair.

[FredTheMug]

He's probably on a beach in Phuket with his laptop. Gambling is illegal there so he can't risk breaking his cover to post on the forums.

[The Ocho]

He's probably on a beach in Phuket with his laptop. Gambling is illegal there so he can't risk breaking his cover to post on the forums.
Gambling is illegal there? That is funny. I wonder how we would all cope if gambling was illegal wherever we are?

[Chrome Prince]

We'd be back to secret two up games in the back alleys and card games in cafes.
The question remains, would horseracing still exist without punters or the ability for owners and trainers to bet on their own horses?

[blackdog1]

We'd be back to secret two up games in the back alleys and card games in cafes.
The question remains, would horseracing still exist without punters or the ability for owners and trainers to bet on their own horses?Why do you think it's called the game of kings?

No punting = no punters = no TAB = no money for racing.
Only the rich could afford to keep racehorses and punting would be a limited black market affair, not benefiting racing.

[beton]

He's probably on a beach in Phuket with his laptop. Gambling is illegal there so he can't risk breaking his cover to post on the forums.Not only is it illegal, 95% of sites connected to gambling are censored including this one.

[FredTheMug]

Gambling is illegal there? That is funny. I wonder how we would all cope if gambling was illegal wherever we are?

As usual I only had half the facts. Gambling is illegal there, except local horse racing (once a fortnight) and the lottery.

If gambling were illegal here I'd move somewhere else!

[FredTheMug]

Why do you think it's called the game of kings?

No punting = no punters = no TAB = no money for racing.
Only the rich could afford to keep racehorses and punting would be a limited black market affair, not benefiting racing.
And there would be 240,000 fewer jobs. I suddenly feel better about my value in society.

[blackdog1]

And there would be 240,000 fewer jobs. I suddenly feel better about my value in society.Amen brother. Feel the same.
PS
I thought I corrected my post to say "sport of kings" instead of "game" but it didn't stick.

[Chrome Prince]

Why do you think it's called the game of kings?

No punting = no punters = no TAB = no money for racing.
Only the rich could afford to keep racehorses and punting would be a limited black market affair, not benefiting racing.

It's called the sport of kings because only the rich could afford to race horses.
Trainer fees, jockey fees, vet bills, nomination fees etc etc.
This was prior to syndications.
The bulk of the money for racing events these days comes from sponsorship.
In the old days it came mostly from the TAB and bookie turnover taxes, and prior to that, attendances by punters through the gate and their food and beverages plus racebooks.

I agree that we'd return to the blackmarket days of the SP bookies, however, I don't think racing would survive, because who would want to sponsor a race that nobody was allowed to bet on.

However, the Melbourne Cup would be the one day. Because the vast majority are there for a party and picnic.

[Moderator 3]

Posts have been TOUd as this thread is titled "NSW Minimum Bet Limits - Start September 1st, 2014" and quite a few recent posts are off topic.

Please keep posts in this thread relevant to the topic.

Thank you.

Moderator.

[Rinconpaul]

Posts have been TOUd as this thread is titled "NSW Minimum Bet Limits - Start September 1st, 2014" and quite a few recent posts are off topic.

Please keep posts in this thread relevant to the topic.

Thank you.

Moderator.
Are you expecting me to believe that there are members out there so offended by the content of these posts, that they've TOU'd them?

[Moderator 3]

Of course it's not a matter of being offended.

Some folks wanted to read about "NSW Minimum Bet Limits - Start September 1st, 2014" and found they were spending time searching for the recent relevant posts because of the numerous off topic posts.

[Moderator 3]

Your post has been deleted Rinconpaul.

If you wish to make a comment on moderation then use the Contact Us link.

They are NOT permitted in the Forum.

Thank you.

[The Ocho]

You have been TOUd.

It was made perfectly clear that if you wish to make a comment on moderation then use the Contact Us link.

They are NOT permitted in the Forum.

You ignored this and disputed the moderator's decision.

The umpire - moderator - is NOT prepared to have a running dispute with members in this Forum.

You have been suspended 24 hours for your post.

Moderator.