Place dividends -- a joke!

[Merriguy]

What can be done about the pitiful place dividends available? I know that this issue has been raised many times; but surely we can press for an improvement somehow.

I note that IAS is still advertising on this site that its IAS-SP+ pays 5% - 50% more than the biggest tote. This hasn't been true for a couple of months or so. They now pay a little above the UniTAB dividend, which, for favourites, is often $1.00 --- money back. What of truth in advertising?

Presumably they are making this change deliberately because they know there will be less to pay out. I think I read somewhere that of the three present totes the overall order of 'best return' is VicTab, NSWTab, and UniTAB.

I had a couple of hundred dollars on Behead 'Em at Port today (for the place). At the close of betting IAS was showing the approx. dividend as $1.75 (check it it is still there). It paid (uniTAB) $1.00, and the munificent IAS-SP was $1.01. What a joke!

Come on Partypooper, Kenchar, Michaelg, and others out there who, I know, like to bet on the place, what can we do? Perhaps putting a little pressure on them like this will help.

Incidentally, I find it most unusual that there has been no discusssion of the new AusTote in these forums (that I have noted anyway). I know that they are not offering (from Norfolk Island) place betting for the moment; but I presume many would have received their offer of a much less take out for win betting. Perhaps their efforts will pressure some of the others to give us a fairer deal. Let's hope so.

In the meantime, does anyone have any advice to offer????

[crash]

Bet to win.

[kenchar]

Merriguy,
You HAVE to subscribe to a fixed odds for the place service.
If I was just using the tabs I would no longer be place betting.

Cheers

[michaelg]

Hi, Kenchar.

Can you provide information about who offers fixed odds for Place betting.

If Austote does provide superior win dividends, one would expect the same to be with place betting. Austote commences today - it will be interesting to compare their dividends with those of the TABs.

[gizzard]

I know that Kenchar is the place King so he can probably give some more options. I have mentioned in another thread, SportOdds offer Fixed Place pricing.
http://www.propun.com.au/racing_forums/viewtopic.php?topic=5959&forum=7&6

[Merriguy]

Thanks for the replies so far. Appreciated.

Have taken your advice Kenchar, and am now ploughing through the the learning process of how the suggested site works :razz:

[pelican]

There is a company that pays the best tote divi for win and place from the 3 totes.Type in "sports" and if you looking to have a "bet" you might find this place suitable.

[partypooper]

Merriguy, Yes I do like to place bet, until now I have tried to stay off the "money back" type of bets by only betting if the selection is showing $1.30 or more b4 the off, but it is not really suitable as I have missed some good bets for one reason or another. And at other times was on for a $1.10c etc. Not sure if IAS will accept a place bet with a minimum return spec., will find out though.

Pelican, thanks for that pointer I was unaware that there was anyone offering best of the 3 for the PLACE, will follow that one up.

[La Mer]

[quote]
On 2004-04-27 23:34, Merriguy wrote:
Presumably they are making this change deliberately because they know there will be less to pay out.

Merrigay: IAS now use UniTab because TAB Ltd closed down the IAS accounts (worth about $30m per annum), so they had to change to either SuperTab or UniTab and the chose the latter (I guess) because they could have more influence on the UniTab markets with their 'bet backs'.

[Chrome Prince]

Merriguy:

That should have no bearing on what price they offer, but in reality they are manipulating the odds by laying off on the tote.

What's interesting, is that by them doing that it has a double effect, it ruins the dividends so makes their service more attractive, and also enables them to offer well under what the price would have been before the bet.

The only benefit for punters is to watch the large place wagers and bet something else.

So I'll be watching whatever firms most for the place on Unitab, and backing it on TabCorp, I'll bet I get better place divvies than IAS offer :smile:

Behead 'em paid $1.10 on Tabcorp.

That's 8.18% better


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Chrome Prince on 2004-04-28 14:57 ]</font>

[Mark]

Why would they bother taking bets & then laying them off on the tote?

[michaelg]

Hi, Pelican.

I've located the website - thanks. However, I cannot see where they claim to give the best place dividend paid by the three TABs.

Apart from a statement that reads "dividends paid out at the Home Tote", I cannot locate any other information about their dividends.

[La Mer]

[quote]
On 2004-04-28 15:57, Mark wrote:
Why would they bother taking bets & then laying them off on the tote?

Mark: Bookies have been doing this for years to round off their books. In the case of IAS then it because they can have an affect on the smaller pools of UniTab, as against those of SuperTab, by 'betting back' into those pools and by so doing reducing their liability, i.e. after the tote takeouts, there is $20,000 to be paid out to winning punters - a horse is currently showing a $10 return, however by 'betting back' $500 into that pool then IAS reduce the payout dividend to $8.20 and thus probably a lot more than $500 in their liabilities.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: La Mer on 2004-04-28 17:04 ]</font>

[pelican]

michaelg
They definately bet best tote the place.Not sure why its not on their site.

[Merriguy]

Pelican is right, Michael.

I have just found it myself.

Go to the top of the home page of the site and click on "Help". When that screen comes up go right down to "Betting Rules", and from there way down to "Racing". It is all there --- but be careful that you read it with attention :wink: There is a lot of detail there! I know I'm in for a bit of study!!

[michaelg]

Hi, Pelican and Merriguy.

Thanks for the information. I will certainly check it out.

[partypooper]

Sorry to b a "Partypooper" again but I can't even find who you are talking about, i.e. best place divi can you b a bit more specific? I am particularly interested in this as my "income" now depends largely from place bets

[Mark]

La Mer
I like to think I'm pretty good with numbers/odds etc & in my business I lay & make bets for a profit. It obviously makes sense if you've laid something then can back it longer to do so, or if you've backed something then can lay it shorter. But to back something on the tote and then still have to pay out at a higher price (5%+) makes no sense. So if he backs something on the tote, it's at a compounded loss as he still guarantees to pay a better price. If you could give a numerical example that would be appreciated.

[Chrome Prince]

Mark,

The difference is the the person holding the bet is paying out according to the tote price. If he is holding $10,000 in bets and his exposure is greater on a certain horse than he would like (one big bet), he can bet $5,000 into the tote pool to bring down his eventual payout and actually firm or ease certain horse prices on the tote.

It's a bit like dutch betting in reverse.
I'm sure that the big players have software which calculates exposure given pool size and odds, just like a dutch betting calculator.

Here's a small example:

Let's say a tote pool is hypothetically $148,000
The favourite is showing $3.60.
I'm holding $10,000 in bets on $3.60
But I'm only holding $4,000 on all other horses in the race.
If the horse wins I have to pay out $36,000
If I bet back $5,000 into the pool the new dividend becomes $3.30 or thereabouts.

So instead of having to pay out $36,000 I have to pay out $33,000 but also win back $11,500 for myself in bets (profit), so my exposure has gone from payout of $36,000 on horse A to $33,000 less $11,500 in winnings, so $21,500 exposure.
Betting back into the pool, I've saved myself $14,500 in payouts and still win $5,000 on that horse if it loses.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Chrome Prince on 2004-04-29 11:55 ]</font>

[Mr ed]

Chrome, this example would mean a minimum of a 35 horse race, but i suppose its hypotetical.

Yeh Pelican or anyone else who would know i would greatly appreciate if you could give us the name of the best place tote site. Either on this thread or to my email adress at six_t_ninda@hotmail.com

cheers ED

[Mark]

CP

Thanks for that, but a couple of variations for you.

Horse shows $3.60 for place therefore IAS would pay $3.78 (+5%), so payout is $37800 not $36000.
Bets back $5000, now paying $3.30, IAS to pay $3.46. (This is what I'm getting at, backing a horse at $3.30, & laying it at $3.46 as part of the same bet, to reduce the exposure???.)
I understand that the original exposure was a potential loss of $23800 (hold $14000 less pay $37800), new exposure $8300 (hold now $9000, less pay $17300), BUT the hold is down $5000 therefore lowering potential profits. So what has happened is loss limited by $15300, and profit lowered by $5000, effectively a place bet @ $3.06 ($15300/$5000), on a horse showing $3.30.

Mark Read is in the bookie business to make $$$ & you can't make $$$ if you're not holding $$$. I guess it's not that simple because with a win market, if you have too much exposure on one horse you can extend the prices on others to try to cover it, but betting the place based on bettering the TAB you can't adjust prices.

Even paying over the TAB place dividends gives IAS a huge % advantage.

[Chrome Prince]

On 2004-04-29 12:22, Mr ed wrote:
Chrome, this example would mean a minimum of a 35 horse race, but i suppose its hypotetical.


I don't understand how you have arrived at this ED, I have said the tote pool is $148,000, but I'm a hypothetical bookie who is holding $14,000 on the race.
$10,000 is on horse A and $4,000 is spread over the other horses I took bets on.

[Merriguy]

The site I referred to is the one that Pro-Punter are offering a joining special on at the moment. Just go there and follow my directions as indicated above.

I'm not clear on why they are very strict on mentioning names in this forum when they are accepting advertising from the same people. Perhaps its to stop others saying they are supporting one outfit over the others

[Chrome Prince]

On 2004-04-29 12:28, Mark wrote:
Horse shows $3.60 for place therefore IAS would pay $3.78 (+5%), so payout is $37800 not $36000.
Bets back $5000, now paying $3.30, IAS to pay $3.46. (This is what I'm getting at, backing a horse at $3.30, & laying it at $3.46 as part of the same bet, to reduce the exposure???.)
I understand that the original exposure was a potential loss of $23800 (hold $14000 less pay $37800), new exposure $8300 (hold now $9000, less pay $17300), BUT the hold is down $5000 therefore lowering potential profits. So what has happened is loss limited by $15300, and profit lowered by $5000, effectively a place bet @ $3.06 ($15300/$5000), on a horse showing $3.30.


Mark,

My example was on a win market.
Using your example,
$3.78 payout $37,800 loss $27,800
Bet back $5,000 new odds $3.46 payout $34,600 less bet $24,600

Less $5,000 @ $3.30 $11,500 profit

So if Horse A loses I win $5,000 on race for that horse.
If horse A wins I payout $34,600 less $11,500 $23,100, so my loss is $13,100

Scenario 1 I don't layoff and I either win $10,000 or lose $17,800

Scenario 2 I layoff and either win $5,000 or lose $13,100

By taking scenario 2 I have either lost $5,000 in profit or saved $4,700 in payouts depending on the outcome.

I see what you're getting at, by betting my profit goes down 50% but my risk is greatly reduced.
In scenario 1 I'm betting $10,000 @ $1.78
In scenario 2 I'm betting $ 5,000 @ $2.62
BUT my loss risk is reduced by $4,700

It only makes sense to do this where you are overexposed.

[La Mer]

[quote]
On 2004-04-29 10:30, Mark wrote:
But to back something on the tote and then still have to pay out at a higher price (5%+) makes no sense. So if he backs something on the tote, it's at a compounded loss as he still guarantees to pay a better price. If you could give a numerical example that would be appreciated.

Mark: Chrome Prince's examples are what I was on about - I've been a little busy over the last 24 hours and just got back to your response, so he beat me to the punch, but his was a very good example.

You mention Read as being a bookmaker, and while that is true in a literal sense, he was, is and always has been an arbitrager first and foremost, which has been the secret of his success over the years because of his attitude of reducing risk at all costs - nothing has changed, better to fore-go a little of the potential profits and stay in the game.

[Mark]

CP

Have you tried to make a book on Betfair?, I think you'd be nicely surprised at how often you can make no risk books every day, and then along come the carnivals & it gets bigger & better.

[pelican]

Partypooper, I have been away. That betting shop is sportsbet.com.au

[partypooper]

Pelican, thanks for that, I've opened an account today, just what I was looking for. As maxi divi is only for the win as you know and IAS seems to be playing with words.
Anyway thanks again

[partypooper]

Well, got a bit too excited as usual, most of my place bets are at Perth, and guess what??? they don't offer this service for WA,
bummer!

[Merriguy]

You have something wrong there, Partypooper. I had a bet for the place at Narrogin yesterday -- no trouble.

One little 'wrinkle' is that the "Country Best Price" is only the better of NSW and Vic TABs; "City Best Price" is all three TABS. The latter seems to be available only on Saturdays or carnival days. Not sure why.

Of my three bets yesterday UniTAB actually paid better for two, and equal for the other. That's not much of a sample of course.

[partypooper]

Merriguy, yes got an e-mail from them today to that effect, still better than nothing but the best of three had me excited. Anyway will be On with them this week, and also scored a 20% new account bonus so that was good.