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fast eddy
2nd October 2004, 01:08 PM
Can Starcraft really win the Cox Plate? Today he reefed and pulled in the Kelt (with no pace in the race) and "dismounted" Boss in the birdcage. What will he (Starcraft) do in front of a bigger crowd? Will he in fact cope with the tight turning 'Valley track with its short straight (173m by memory)?

I don't want to sound like another Kiwi knocking the horse (NZ bred that he is) but he just had nothing to give; didn't have the usual blistering acceleration; and in my opinion, as 'humble' as it may be, has not beaten too many flash fields, both here in NZ and over there (Oz). Is he over-hyped or can he really cut the mustard?

I am interested in your opinions as you guys (Aussies) will have a better feel for the horses running around over there. Is Starcraft a valid contender for the Cox because I don't think he is. His run in the Stoney Bridge wasn't overly convincing when he just ran down Miss Potential and now today. Although he has won both starts at >2000m.

Is Starcraft just a miler?

Look forward to your comments

topsy99
2nd October 2004, 01:35 PM
run was pretty good.
probably needed some pace but fought on well enough.

byanose
4th October 2004, 01:41 AM
Till recently thought he had a real good chance in the Cox. But now not so sure, with his defeat on the weekend and taking a line through Miss Potential's unplaced run in the Epsom.

Starcraft
4th October 2004, 07:27 AM
Starcraft will kick everybody's donkey!!! Northerly will test.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Starcraft on 2004-10-04 08:28 ]</font>

catweazle
4th October 2004, 07:29 AM
On 2004-10-04 08:27, Starcraft wrote:
Starcraft will kick everybody's donkey!!!


I'm with you! after all if anyone knows best, it's YOU :smile:

Starcraft
4th October 2004, 12:54 PM
He's had his chance to prove he's a fluke - and he's obviously not, so I reckon get on a good thing early, cause those NZ horses can go like an energizer...

fast eddy
11th October 2004, 10:20 AM
Hey Starcraft, do you still reckon Starcraft (the horse) will win the Cox Plate? To win he will have to do A LOT better than Saturday. Starcraft couldn't beat a 9 horse field in a race suited to horses running from off the pace and he had a 367m straight to "work with." He peaked with 100-200m to go. (Mummify had the fastest last 200m 12.48s). If Starcraft doesn't get handy in the Cox then all the tea in China won't see him win, especially with the "worlds shortest straight" (173m). I believe he is better suited to 1600m. Oh yeah, he needs blinkers as well.

If Balmuse gets a run in the Cox, look out for him. He's got a great finishing burst, but the only query could be if he can get balanced at the turn for the sprint home.

Well that's my 2 cents worth. If I'm proven wrong re Starcraft and the Cox Plate I will only write nice fluffy postings about him in future and beg for your forgiveness.

Mark
11th October 2004, 10:44 AM
Not suggesting anything untoward, but one week he's up leading, the next he's back last. On Saturday his price blew alarmingly. No questions asked. Why not? One week he's an iron horse who can travel the world unaffected, the next the trainer is saying maybe coming back from NZ and starting within a week was against him. And each time he gets beaten the price eases out a little for his main goal.

fast eddy
11th October 2004, 11:12 AM
Mark, good points regarding Starcrafts racing position and price. Forgot about that. There doesn't seem to be any uniformity or pattern to his racing does there? His last 3 runs haven't been flash and he has been slow away twice now. It begs the question, did the starting gate accident (Mudgway, I think) adversely affect Starcraft? I heard that Garry wanted Starcraft to settle at the rear. I don't know what the reasoning behind this was, if in fact it was true.

umrum
11th October 2004, 11:15 AM
In New Zealand(the Kelt) he was always going to go forward as a trial for the cox plate to see if he can race on the pace. He got his brains kicked in by balmuse so they simply went back to his usual style of racing.

stugots
11th October 2004, 06:32 PM
being at the valley he has little or no chance in a race like the cox plate, what with his seeming inability to cope with large noisy crowds or tight circuits.

he's much more likely to be at home at tracks like flemington or sandown.

heres hoping the owner still get the $mil on as its all the better for the odds on my nag.

ra sun
12th October 2004, 10:15 AM
just wondering how a horse who has won an ajc derby cant get 2000m, and be labelled a miler??


i think he can, and probably will win the cox plate. if he runs straight, seems he has has his head sideways in almost all his runs this campaign, anyone know why?

umrum
12th October 2004, 11:50 AM
3yo staying races are usually very poor guides as class often prevails. Do you think helenus was a genuine 2500m horse. I certaintly dont nor do i think special harmony is a stayer or starcraft is a stayer., In fact the trainer publicly stated that starcvraft didnt get the ground in the derby and would never run further than 2000m again.

cheers
umrum

fast eddy
12th October 2004, 11:53 AM
On 2004-10-12 11:15, ra sun wrote:
just wondering how a horse who has won an ajc derby cant get 2000m, and be labelled a miler??



Ra Sun, I said this because of his comprehensive (my interpretation) ability over the mile (5 wins from 6 starts) in good company as opposed to >2000m (2 from 2 and not great fields). Starcraft won the Derby but so what? That's history. I'm talking about 'current' form and this clearly shows he is not performing at the moment. It's not to say of course, that he won't/can't win. I simply don't think he is showing enough. He either needs a hood or needs to get his mind back on the job.

This is only my opinion and you are perfectly entitled to yours. Thank you for taking the time to post Ra Sun. I await with interest to see how he goes between now and the Cox.

Starcraft
12th October 2004, 12:04 PM
Is anyone actually taking into account that his "DISMAL FAILURE" on the weekend (3rd place, no less) was him backing up from an international flight? And nobody has commented on Super Impose running dead last in a field of 6 before he went on to win his 2nd Epsom and Doncaster... I get the impression you don't want there to be a super horse unless you won money on it at incredible odds before it was famous!!! Why not just enjoy a horse that's a good athlete?

umrum
12th October 2004, 12:23 PM
On 2004-10-12 13:04, Starcraft wrote:
Is anyone actually taking into account that his "DISMAL FAILURE" on the weekend (3rd place, no less) was him backing up from an international flight? And nobody has commented on Super Impose running dead last in a field of 6 before he went on to win his 2nd Epsom and Doncaster... I get the impression you don't want there to be a super horse unless you won money on it at incredible odds before it was famous!!! Why not just enjoy a horse that's a good athlete?


I actually backed starcraft in the debonair at $36. I dont care about money won or lost in the past. This is about him NOW. At the moment I would be laying him all day in a cox plate. think grand armee will win. Starcraft hasnt done enough to be a champion. sure he's freakish galloper in the mould of a saintly but what has he done really. His derby was pretty good but I want to see him do more before we go on saying how great he is.

cheers
umrum

fast eddy
12th October 2004, 01:29 PM
Starcraft you aren't comparing apples with apples. I know you are passionate about Starcraft and that's great, but what we are talking about Starcrafts CURRENT form, New Zealand included.

Current campaign/form:
Yalumba (2000m) His run for 3rd on Saturday was just that; a run. Yes his last 800-200m and 600-200m sectionals were great, but he didn't finish off. He peaked with 200m to go in a race 'set up' for him. Fast pace set by St Reims ensured off the pace runners should have got home. The straight is 367m long. The 'Valley is only 173m.

His run in the Kelt (2040m) wasn't that great. He was fired up before the race, dumped Boss, pulled and reefed and Boss gave him 'his head' and went to lead. I accept that there was no true pace in the race, but a Might & Power or I know you don't like her, Sunline would have led and buried that field, with the exception Balmuse. He didn't have his customary 'kick' at the end. For the record I heavily backed Balmuse.

In the Stoneybridge (1600m) he was slow away and alledgedly 'hit in the head' by the starting gate. Went around the field at the turn and won well enough. But not in the same way 1st-up. You may be interested to know that Balmuse has faster overall 1600m times than Starcraft.

Mudgway (1400m). 1st run in a foreign country. Nothing short of sensational. What a win. What acceleration. But we didn't see the best of Starcraft.

My point to this novel is that Starcraft started his campaign well enough, but hasn't carried it on. There is no dispute that he is a lovely looking horse and has great potential, both on and off the track. I have written this synopsis of Starcrafts current campaign with a cold, dispasionate heart. I have no loyalty when betting. I'm only interested in making money. I need it to live.

PS I don't want you to think that I'm a Starcraft-basher I'm not. I just think he's not in good enough form.

PPS For the record my Cox selections are Grand Armee, Elegant Fashion and Starcraft. Subject to weather and scratchings of course

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: fast eddy on 2004-10-12 14:32 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: fast eddy on 2004-10-12 15:01 ]</font>

brisjim
17th October 2004, 05:19 PM
I'll get in early and tip one for you..... Regal Roller (if he can run the distance) cos I think his last few wins are getting more and more impressive!!!

Chuck
17th October 2004, 05:40 PM
i backed a "Starcraft-Makybe Diva" Cox plate-Melbourne cup double @ $25 before the C Cup yesterday, and had $10 on it...great odds now...

Chuck

fast eddy
19th October 2004, 01:27 PM
I see Starcraft has drawn the 1 'box' for the Cox Plate. If Boss rides him back he'll get boxed away and you can send me your money now because he won't win from there, unless major gaps open on the fence. Do you think a jockey worth their salt wll allow that? I don't think so. Remember the home straight is a paltry ~170m long. Yes he worked well on the StrathAyr (is this the correct spelling?) surface but he'll need to monster the field before the turn.

Conversely, if Boss rides him forward AND he settles, then watch out, it'll be an interesting race thats for sure.

Good luck everyone.

rabbitz
19th October 2004, 01:50 PM
OK ,time to put the old neck out and reduce this field to realistic chances
Starcraft (as mentioned above Barrier 1 could be a problem but you cant leave him out)
Grand Armee (going well)
Elvstroem(i think he has peaked and cant win)
Regal Roller (wont get the distance and will have too much pressure up front,gone at 500m)
Elegant Fashion(dont know much about this horse so it stays in)
Fields of Omagh(won a cheap race in Adelaide as a leadup,still might run a place)
Savabeel(the unknown three year old,but can he do an octagonal)
Kings Chapel (not bad run last start but cant win this)
Our Egyptian Raine (Distance ?????)
Paolini (sub standard German conveyance,wont run on)
Delzao (will go the distance and relish the conditions if the weather forecast is right)
Miss Potential (will sign a joint suicide pact with Regal roller at 500m)
Natural Blitz (hates wet tracks,should finish his career in Perth or Brisbane where the tracks are good most of the time)
So we are left with STARCRAFT,GRAND ARMEE
DELZAO ,ELEGANT FASHION and SAVABEEL
No other horse can win
I reckon the cox plate should be restricted to EIGHT horses so we get a decent race
Cheers :cool:

Seeker11
19th October 2004, 02:06 PM
With Miss Potential, Regal Roller, Our Egyptian Raine and Elvstroem all likely to run very quickly up forward, Starcraft will need to be right up there to be in a nice position and be able to pounce.

Others oin this thread have adequately analysed the form of and around Star craft and with barrier No.1 I find it contradictory and somewhat perplexing...

I think that you can't leave Starcraft out of your multiples, but weither he becomes my No.1 selection is something I still need to think about.

PS Rabbitz: Elegant Fashion has placed 15 of 17 starts in Hong Kong in the last two years including 7 places (2,3,2) over 2000m

_________________
may the horse be with you

Seeker

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Seeker11 on 2004-10-19 15:25 ]</font>

Mark
19th October 2004, 04:18 PM
Terrible Epsom the other week, and now the worst Cox plate in years, or have we been spoilt the last couple?

umrum
19th October 2004, 04:54 PM
On 2004-10-19 17:18, Mark wrote:
Terrible Epsom the other week, and now the worst Cox plate in years, or have we been spoilt the last couple?


We have been spoilt with sunline and Northerly. two immortals of the turf. This cox is ok. better than last year imo. The epsom was rubbish and will continue to be so. I reckon grand armee will win this.

fast eddy
19th October 2004, 05:53 PM
On 2004-10-19 17:54, umrum wrote:

On 2004-10-19 17:18, Mark wrote:
Terrible Epsom the other week, and now the worst Cox plate in years, or have we been spoilt the last couple?


We have been spoilt with sunline and Northerly. two immortals of the turf. This cox is ok. better than last year imo. The epsom was rubbish and will continue to be so. I reckon grand armee will win this.


Amen. Never a truer word spoken. Written I mean. Grand Armee and Elegant Fashion for mine.

fast eddy
26th October 2004, 11:49 AM
I reiterate, Starcraft IMO is only a miler and this was again proven by his poor run in the Cox. I rest my case!