Poker machines

[Mr. Logic]

Here are some suggestions. I don't expect governments which are by now hooked on the money the pokies are pulling in to take these seriously.

1. Machines should be silent. Let's get rid of the repetitive and different sounds which create an atmosphere of winning. Players all look at someone when a particular tune is played because that tune means "big winner." I've also noticed players leave a machine where the sound is not working and go to one with sound.

2.If a player bets 10 and receives back 20 the machine has written on it win 20. That should be made win 10 - the actual profit. If a player bets 10 and receives back 0 the machine has written on it win 0. That should be made lose 10. Let's actually remind players as they play that thay are actually losing rather than winning.

3.All non winning combinations should be programmed to appear in line with their true chances. So four out of five in a line should be made to appear the right statistical amount. They appear much more often than the correct odds of it happening and are designed to make players keep betting because there was nearly a big collect.

4. True odds for all payouts should appear. Eg if a line of three pays even money the true odds should be next to the payout - 5/1 or worse?

[Marcus]

Don't be a wowser. That is silly. Why try and stop our fun?

[becareful]

Good ideas - but you are right the state governments are too dependent on the money to actually do something about it. I would also like to see:

5. Machines should be limited in the amount that can be wagered per "game". eg. maximum of a few dollars per game

6. Machines that accept notes should be banned - if people have to get up to go to a cashier to change their $100 grocery money to coins they are less likely to do it (and the club/pub has better chance of detecting problem gamblers).

7. Even better would be to make all machines accept tokens rather than money.

8. Each pub/club/casino should be required to display how much PROFIT the venue has made from poker machines in the last week/month/year.

It was interesting last year (or was it the year before) when the Coward government was trying to ban online gambling they were very big on stopping problem gamblers but when an interviewer pointed out that the majority of problem gamblers are using poker machines there was "nothing that could be done - poker machines are a state issue"

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: becareful on 2002-05-27 10:22 ]</font>

[mr magic]

I think becareful's point 7 is the most crucial.
If we could stop the desperates from emptying their wallets and make them go to a window and "buy" tokens which have a value of no more than .20c each and then make the machines accept no more than say $1 per spin, that might curb things a bit.

The State Govt of NSW has let this anti-social, highly addictive cancer spread throughout the State unchecked. The pokie barons are driving Rollers, the Govt are collecting $$$ they wouldn't have dreamt of 10 years ago and the 10% or so of players who have a serious, habitual problem are taking food out of their kids mouths.
Carr's answer is to put stickers on machines inviting the player to ring a number if they have a problem. That is like putting a warning on a hypodermic needle and handing it to a junkie who is overdue for his next hit.

The ironic part about pokies and their newfound capacity to eat $100 notes is that the same idiotic Carr Govt legislated that the NSWTAB could now only accept $200 per day in credit card deposits into phone accounts. I am not arguing the rights and wrongs of that idea but merely highlighting the hypocrisy and the contempt with which racing punters are held in NSW. I bet bookmakers wish they were offered the same latitude in this state that pokie barons are.

The Aussie Pub as I knew it is a thing of the past. Live bands and conversation replaced by a breed of zombies with their disappearing paypackets. The greedy publicans who lobbyed to get the machines so they could offer beer prices competitive with the clubs still charge their old prices and pocket the proceeds of the bandits.

Carr doesn't care. The govt is rolling in money, he's never set foot in a Pub anyway and he is socially and morally bankrupt. Perhaps the new Premier next year will have the courage to stem the tide. But I won't hold my breath.

[Equine Investor]

Hmmm pokies ugggh!!!

Pokies should be a social "fun" event where someone chooses to "flutter" $10 or $20 dollars - it is ridiculous that I have seen people stash thousands into machines over the course of two to three hours...they have no chance to recoup losses - NONE.

Warnings, tokens, etc do absolutely nothing to stop someone who is chasing losses or has a gambling problem. The only way is to limit the amount a machine will accept.
I have never ever seen a pokie venue try to stop a manic gambler and I don't think I ever will.
The whole pub atmosphere has been destroyed by the evil ones. (one armed bandits). It used to be a great place to catch live bands in the 80's and now live bands have all but died. It is destroying the musical culture as well as families.
Racing is different. You don't press a button every 2 seconds and watch your money flush - with a bit of skill...not luck, you can win in the longrun. With pokies it is impossible to win in the longrun.

[becareful]

So how does it feel the other 99% of the time when you walk away having done all your money?

[Equine Investor]

Some people gamble for various reasons.
...I mean this in the nicest possible way...If it makes you feel important because you win a little but lose alot, then this is a danger sign of someone with perhaps a vulnerability to having a gambling problem.
Just a suggestion and not intended to offend.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: quapi on 2003-01-30 21:00 ]</font>

[becareful]

Us against them. There's no harm in that.

Umm - yes there is a lot of harm in that when the US (gamblers) always lose and the THEM (machines) always win.

There was an interesting article in Canberra Times on Sunday re. problem gamblers and more than 80% of the people seeking help with problem gambling are poker machine players. Some comments you may be able to relate to:
"Wins are usually immediately rewagered"
"The gambling activity generally starts as an attempt to make their life more interesting and exciting"
"Children learn that Mum or Dad can usually find money for the poker machines but the child is denied things they want or need"

I agree with EI - if you are playing the machines several times a week or for extended periods of time then seek help before it is too late (a good start is to track EXACTLY how much money you are putting into the machines and then think what that could buy you or your family). If you are getting good wins but keep playing until it is all gone then I suspect you do have a problem with it.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: quapi on 2003-01-30 21:02 ]</font>

[mr magic]

I don't think anyone has a problem with their existance. The problem is their capacity to take thousands of dollars from one player with zero chance of that person winning in the long run.
Also, the sheer number of them is a concern.
The social players ( ie $10 and $20 ) shouldn't have a problem in limiting the machines to per spin maximum should they?
Surely you can distinguish between the Nursing Home outings and the people who steal/embezzle to feed their addiction.

Limiting machines in some way would help

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: quapi on 2003-01-30 21:02 ]</font>

[Ryan]

Whilst I whole-heartedly agree with the comments re limitations and restrictions we will never see them banned completely. Simple band aid measures will be regularly introduced to appease the opponents.

Too much money, both over AND under the table, is involved.

Australia is so far behind on issues relating to the investigation of gambling addictions it is laughable. For example, there has NEVER been any auto-ethnographic type research done in this country despite gambling being the No 1 cause for addiction related suicides.

Maybe somebody should send a copy of Dostoyevsky's "The Gambler" to all state and federal ministers for compulsory reading?

[Reenster]

They wouldn't have time to read it. They're all too busy counting their money and listening to Kenny Rogers version of same.

[becareful]

Couple of interesting articles in Canberra Times this morning:

"An accounts manager with a gambling problem pleaded guilty...of defrauding the ACT Dept Of Education and Community Services of $441,512.57."
Police estimated she had visited clubs an average of 288 times per year over a period of 4 years.
"Club Records [Tuggeranong Valley Club] show that she had recorded a poker machine turnover, inclusive of winnings, of $1,260,997.83" (this was at a SINGLE CLUB).
"Excluding wins she had input about $136,105 into the machines."
She also had gambled at other clubs as well!

Apparantly at no time was she ever questioned about the high spending or recommended counselling until she was arrested by police over the original fraud!


Also in an unrelated article it is reported that Canberra Clubs will be able to reduce their required donations from poker machine turnover by 33% if those donations go Womens Sport instead of mixed/mens sporting clubs or other charities!

[puntz]

A adult version of feeding the larfing clowns.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: puntz on 2002-06-10 00:05 ]</font>

[becareful]

The 7:30 report on ABC has a story on the woman mentioned in my previous post tonight.

Oops - sorry the story was about a different woman but the circumstances were almost the same. Woman with poker machine gambling problem steals thousands of dollars from employer and puts it all through the machines.

Interesting to see the club manager saying he had no obligation to refer the woman in question to a counsellor or enquire as to where she was getting the money!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: becareful on 2002-06-06 20:03 ]</font>

[Bhagwan]

The biggest Poker Machine addict is the Government.
They can`t bare to give it up ,no matter what human damage it does. E.G.family breakdowns,embezzelments,suicide.

Govt.retail figures have the gambling turnover added to it ,dispite the protests of the Retail Assoc.who claim the gambling figure makes up 16% of the retail figures & growing mainly from Poker Machine because the TAB turnover is relativly stable , therefore should be shown seperatly.

Melb. has 2 Asaian gamblers annonomous associations their culture has been exposed to gambling for thousands of years,the assoc. claim their clints only became a problem once they were introduced to Poker machines .

Ausrtralia has the 2nd. largest number of machines in the world.
That has to be a sad indicement on our Governments need for greed.

When should we start worrying ,18%,20%,25%,I think NOW is as good a time as any.

It`s time for Australia to wake up on this one.

[Ryan]

We nay have the second largest number of machines in the world but we have the most machines 'per capita' by a significant margin.

Those figures exclude Japan, which has more than 1 million machines. There machines look like pinball machines, but you bet.

[Ryan]

Pachinko is the name of the game.

It's a form of vertical pinball in which the player shoots small metal balls into a pin-filled playing field. The balls then bounce from pin to pin until they come to rest in one of many compartments with various payout values.

There are actually around 4 million of these machines in Japan and the Japanese are crazy about them. The maximum bet value on these machines is a lot lower than on the pokies over here.

Ryan

There are also Pachislo games - About 1.2 mill i think. Aristocrat has a jv with Sammy Corp of Japan to produce Pachislo machines - Aristocrat supplies the software, while Sammy supplies the hardware. The machines look good.

Have people posting here actualy gone to the pokies and seen people playing and enjoying themselves. You also get free coffee and snacks like party pies.

If you lose $100, you haven't really got anything for free have you?
That's expensive coffee and party pies!!!!!!

[becareful]

That's the really strange thing Hacche - when I walk past the people playing the machines at my local club very few of them actually seem to be enjoying themselves. Most of them seem to be staring at the machine with quite a blank look on their faces pressing the button repeatedly without pausing between each game. Sure they get excited when they have a big win (small wins seem to have little effect) but almost nobody actually takes the money out - they just gamble it away again.

Have you ever wondered why the clubs are so generous with the food/coffee? It is so that you don't have to leave the machines to feed yourself and they make more money! If they could just incorporate a toilet into the machine they would be laughing. As Chief points out for every $5 worth of food/coffee they give out for "free" they probably get at least $100 in poker machine profits - damn good investment on their behalf.

[Ryan]

I agree with you becareful. People do NOT seem to enjoy playing. The majority appear as automatons with fixed stares.

Before you criticise posters for their comments Hacche, note that not only have I visited Las Vegas twice in the past two years (where you receive free alcohol whilst playing) but my thesis for my Masters in Sociology was entitled "The Social Evil of the Poker Machine in Australia."

Maybe I'm qualified to answer?

Ryan

Not just a pretty face! :wink:

Hey, look at the busloads of pensioners who turn up for an outing. Their not blank. Their enjoying playing.

[Bhagwan]

The latest figures just released 17th. July by the Federal Government, state that gambling had a 8 billion dollar turn over this year ,which is up again on last year , they said the majority was from POKER MACHINES.

The Government also expressed concern & were going to look at possible ways of minimising the volumn in the clubs , pubs & casinos.

The figures are realy obvious now, that Gambling percentage growth has exceeded retail store growth ,& thats a worry when a number of stores are struggling.
This is what the Retail Association has been advising the Government for some time.

The Government is the real addict here , lets see if they can shake this monkey off their back or will profit before principle once again rou` the day .

[Ryan]

Bhagwan

I predict that legislation will be amended that reduces the maximum number of machines per premises. Of course this won't be retrospective and premises that currently have X number of machines will be allowed to keep them, it will only affect new applications.

This will allow pollies to say "Look, we've reduced the number of poker machines" but obviously won't provide any help to addicted gamblers. It also won't reduce the Governments income from pokies.

At least it will appear positive, which is all that anyone connected with these insidious machines wants to do. There is simply too much money involved.

Ryan

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ryan on 2002-07-20 19:49 ]</font>

[Bhagwan]

........Well said Ryan........

[Magic Flute]

Does anyone really understand how & when pokies pay out??? If you think that you can win from the pokies...you're fooling yourself! This is what really goes on:
- All poker machines are linked electronically to a main frame thus the total control of monies (the govt. knows exactly how much $$$ is coming in).
- The law says that a % of $$$ needs to go back to the players. (Now this is randomly spread across the state). How many venues, machines and players are there in the state?

So what they do is program the main frame to randomly pay out x amount at y venue on machine #z001. People who do not understand how it's done think that they can win & make a profit. Dear oh dear, the only people making a profit is the government.

I had to explain to my parents that you have to be in the right place at the right time to win, it's pure and simple luck... They still believe that playing on a certain machine after someone has lost a bit of coins will make them win. FOOLISH !!!

The older manual machines of the 70's were giving a lot more back to the players unlike today's computer controlled high profit margin revenue machines.

But at the end of the day, it's your money and your life. So you're in control or are you?

[Equine Investor]

I have a little system for playing the pokies......

Go and get the free coffee and sandwiches and go home!!!

:lol:

You can't lose.
:wink:

[Percentum]

When I was a child, some years ago now, I used to love reading the duck comics put out by Disney. Every now and then they would put in a story about the three little pigs. As those of you who are well read would know there were two pigs who were a bit dopey and did silly things and one who was quite clever and cautious.
This last pig was given the name of Practical Pig. Whenever the two less gifted pigs did something silly and reckless Practical Pig would bail them out and then deliver a lecture on their foolishness while waggling a finger. At the time I thought that Practical Pig was something of a smart aleck and killjoy. With advanced age and hopefully wisdom my stance on Practical Pig has altered somewhat.
As far as poker machines are concerned I feel certain that my own view and that of Practical Pig would, at this stage of my life, probably concur.

[TheDuck]

What say you, Magic Flute???

How can this be so?? There are "sure fire methods" and books and everything that you can buy for silly amounts of money that make poker machines a guaranteed income!!

HA HA HA HA :lol:

I think if it's in a casino it's there to take your money. They're fun places to visit but I wouldn't want to make a living there.

Now horses! That's another story!

[Percentum]

I'm almost ashamed to admit this but I tried a bit of research on these bloody things. I played 1c at a time (i.e. one reel on a 1c machine) on the Egyptian Pyramid thing, Queen of the Nile. What I was trying to see was if there was any way at all that one could predict approximately when the free spins gimmick came up i.e. would it be a reasonable gamble to sit there in the pokie palace and press the buttons 250 times @ 1c and if no free spins had been gained to then up the ante. The range varied from somewhere in the 100s to about 500. I only, however, lasted about 3 hours or so and probably did about $10. I came to the conclusion that no amount of money is worth subjecting oneself to such mind numbing, energy sapping boredom.

[Rain Lover]

By definition, poker machines are strictly for those who have no idea of how to gamble sensibly. This ranges from those who can't stop to those who haven't a clue.
The addicts sense that they are being fleeced but are powerless to stop, most simple punters don't realise what a rip-off the machines are and sensible punters aren't tempted at all.
I'm just grateful that I live in WA and that the only time that I have to put up with the infernal machines is when I'm forced to go to the casino.
A final thought: To restrict use, make punters use an ID card on each visit and use that card to monitor each punter's spend. A daily limit of $100 to $200,would at least put a brake on individual losses.

[Mr J]

Melb. has 2 Asaian gamblers annonomous associations their culture has been exposed to gambling for thousands of years,the assoc. claim their clints only became a problem once they were introduced to Poker machines .

Ausrtralia has the 2nd. largest number of machines in the world.
That has to be a sad indicement on our Governments need for greed.


Mankind has been gambling for thousands of years, not just asians. That said, they are keen gamblers (moreso than others). Still, as long as there is gambling there will be addictions, and addictions didn't start with pokies. I'm sure many asians had a problem before pokies came around.

As for the statement about the 2nd largest number of machines, I think the figure that we have the HIGHEST PER CAPITA is probally just as important. We ARE the pokie capital of the world, and that's a damn shame.

Machines are boring, and give out terrible returns. I've never EVER sent a coin down the slot and NEVER will. I don't see the fun in it at all. My primary income is BJ, which in my opinion is a much better option. The return is much better if the player knows basic strategy, hell even baccarat, roulette and craps are better than the pokies (AND sociably/mentally interactable games).

If you have to gamble, at least gamble on something where you have a chance.

[maxhugen]

Some of you sound so bleeding self-righteous!

What the hell, who cares if you think pokies are addictive/boring/evil/socially defunct?

Legislate against them? What an absurb idea. The people who are going to be problem gamblers will just gamble on something else.

Legislation is a denial of personal responsibility for the few, and an abuse of civil liberties for the majority.

Pokies? I love em! I know how to calculate 10%, so I want to own a squizillion of them.

Put my own hard-earned into them? No way, I'd rather blast my bucks on one wild night!

The Captain

[Mr J]

hugen, I'm not saying they should be banned, I'm just totally amazed that people actually play them. They're boring, and give a terrible payout.