Now consider the effect of that ~$2,222 initial charge allowance.

The very convenient consequence for Betfair is that it conveniently allows it to understate the true % of customers affected by the charges.

Without that allowance there could easily be say 10 times the number affected.

But as that allowance is only a once only offer, more customers will blow it forever week after week and the % affected will soar and soar.

One more reason to question Betfair's claim of how few will be affected.

Hi, this is my first post on this forum so am prepared for all the flack that may fly my way :D

I get the impression from JFC's comments that the $2,200 allowance is a one off and reduces if any is used, my interpretation is that it is for "each 60 week period"

i.e Period 1-60 week, next week it would apply to week 2-61...etc

Hi Chrome,

You seam to have some grasp on the subject. What do you mean have not payed full commision? How can you not pay a commision when you win? Or is it that they give you a 3% discount for large volume and then take 20% of your profit ??? I really strugle to understand how someone could not pay commision, and what is the level of commision that is right? I thought it was 5 to 2% ???

Michal

This wouldn't all fit on the one post so did 2

These are for the past 12 weeks and profits for $1: (my 12 weeks have been good)

Bets...459
Wins...130 (S/R 28.3%)
Place..326 (S/R 71%)
Gross Profit Win......$82 (17.8%) before 5% commission
Losing win bets.......459-130=329

Gross Profit Place....$110 (24%) before 5% commission
Losing Place bets.......459-326=133

Extrapolate these figures out to 60 weeks (BetFair period)
Bets...2,295
Wins...650 (S/R 28.3%)
Place..1,630 (S/R 71%)
Gross Profit Win......$410 (17.8%) before 5% commission
Losing win bets.......1,645
Gross Profit Place....$550 (24%) before 5% commission
Losing Place bets.......665

I then calculated the Premium charge in 2 separate types Win & Place bets to see how each affected me:

BFPC - Win only
20% of $410 = $82 (this is the figure I need to be greater than so that I do not qualify for BFPC calculations)
Actual commission on win collects (410+1645)*0.05 = $102.75
Implied commission on losing win bets 1645*0.05 = $82.25
BFPC calculation (102.75+82.25)/2 = $92

My BFPC ($92) is greater than 20% of gross profits ($82), hence no BFPC no matter what my bet size is


BFPC - Place only
20% of $550 = $110
Actual commission on place collects (550+665)*0.05 = $60.75
Implied commission on losing place bets 665*0.05 = $33.25
BFPC calculation (60.75+33.25)/2 = $47

My BFPC assessed figure for $1 on place only is 110-47 = $63

Using $20 bets
63 * 20 = $1,260

$35 place bets
63 * 35 = $2,205 (takes care of the 60 week allowance allocated for EACH 60 week period)

By betting win & place the bet could be increased over $40 before I would expect to donate to BFPC using the above figures
What would $40 Place only mean:
$550 * 40 = $27,500 less $2,430 (commission on place collects) = $25,070

If this became a problem for me, I have several choices:
a) move from Betfair
b) keep my bet sizes below $40 (happily doing that now)
c) Win only or each way betting
d) plan more holidays ( loving wife has put a big tick next to this one)
e) pay the BFPC


All that is needed is a bit of thought - apply some common dog-@#$% - do some simple calculations.
Basically the figures show thatwith a normal 10% POT then there is no worries about BFPC,
where the S/R is high and POT is over 20%, it then boils down to the bet size

How many do over 2,000 bets/year and average over 20% POT - according to BetFair, only 0.5% of their customers
I have no reason to disbelieve this figure.

Very interesting user name.

Now, having dredged through that material I am so confused that I am prepared to concede that you may be correct about the allowance applying to a rolling 60 week window, instead of only applying initially.

So presumably after 60 weeks are up, for every subsequent week Betfair credits your allowance by ~$37 = (2222/60).

Pity Betfair didn't bother spelling that out to eliminate confusion.

Anyway imagine those who manage to stay completely within the allowance by averaging pre-allowance charges of $37 per week.

From week 61 that changes.

If 50% stay below $37 then they escape charges.

But the other 50% who exceed $37 will get charged!

In essence anyone slightly below the allowance should now start getting charged upon encountering an above-average run.

So the proportion of affected customers will increase.

An important fact that Betfair has failed to disclose.

That is not the way I interpret it - whatever your figure was for Week 1 would be added to the amount and Week 61 would be deducted - not necessarily $37

BF will be advising of our actual Premium Charge status so that we all will know where we stand on a weekly basis...and if in the event that a person does pay a fee, this is also taken into account when calculating future Premium Charges

I really can't see how it will affect the majority of the punters

The username was a nickname give back to me in my footy playing days :D

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Michal it gets extremely confusing for everyone actually, including Betfair - even they can't explain it, so how do they expect their members to understand it?

What I mean by full commission is not the commission rate, nor the actual dollars paid at the end, I mean something a bit different.

Punters pay commission on losing winning bets, traders do not.

Yeah it sounds weird but I'll try and explain it as I understand it.

Punter A has 100 bets of $100, turning over $10,000
He makes $2,000 profit.
He does not pay 5% commission on just the $2,000 he won, he pays commission on every individual winning bet along the way.
He might have a lot of winning bets, but still only win $2,000.
So he's paid probably $200 in commission at the very least.

Trader B has 100 trades of $100, turning over $10,000
He makes $2,000 profit
He pays commission on his winning trades only, so probably $100 in commission because almost all his trades are winning trades, but small dribbles of profit every trade (nearly).

The punter has paid "full" commission, the trader will probably pay half commission plus a very fat premium charge now.

I hope I explained it enough, it's hard to put into words, but they have everyone running for cover, and most are not even hunted.

Yep under stand that Chrome

Trader A would pay $600 (at 5%) commission he would have to win $12000 , all bets in different races.

Trader B has his bets in one race wins the same amount as trader A $2000 and only has to pay $100 commission

So what Betfair are saying is that Trader B isn't covering the cost that is incurred on Betfair for his 100 bets, this is why the new charge.

Yes, you put it better than I did Crackone.

It seems that something else has happened which has gone un noticed by everyone caught up with Premium Charges.....

Australians are now allowed to bet in running on international horseracing events.

They lifted the ban last night :D

Last night we lifted the restrictions on IP blocking that prevented customers in Australia from betting in-running online on horseracing events. Customers will now be free to bet on markets which offer this functionality i.e. UK horseracing.