Checking now Xanny, but I might not answer for a couple of hours as I'd like to go bet the pigs(Do you guys call bad horses "cats"? I've seen Stix say it a few times. You crazy Aussies talk funny! Just kidding my didgaradoo mates!

G'day saratoga,

A couple of years ago the NSWTAB tried to get U.S.racing "off the ground" here in Australia by operating on Friday U. S. meetings(a track in Kentucky was one and I am unsure of the others) which came through here in the early hours of Saturday.
It proved to be an unsuccessful venture as the horses were generally of a lower standard and there was no viable form available. Also. more importantly, Oz punters were too pre-occupied with doing the form leading up to our own weekend venues.
My question is : are there numerous tracks in Kentucky and generally, are they viable betting venues?
My main observation was that the horses appeared to run each furlong at an even rate whereas our style of racing here is to more or less "sit and sprint."
Whose do you think is the most effective racing pattern?

Cheers.

Maybe the dingo took your baby-Elaine from Seinfeld. I don't know why I posted that.

Xanadu, I just looked for about 5 minutes on that forum but didn't find your question, until I came back here. I have to ponder that for a while because although I'm aware of these differences between here and Aus/Europe, I've never thought about what was a better way, I just figured the whole while in Rome thing. I have some ideas already but I want to really come up with a strong objective opinion. As for Kentucky, the Spring and Fall meet at Keeneland in Lexington are very strong with the best horses around running. (VERY STRONG INSIDE SPEED BIAS ON THE DIRT THERE. If you come across an outside closer who did well there, give him a good look on a closers or honest track. The turf there is generally kind to closers but I think it is pretty fair.) CHURCHILL DOWNS is in Louisville about 80 miles north west of Lexington near the Indiana border on the banks of the Ohio river. 80 miles physically, but a world of difference in the towns and the tracks. Churchill is an old track that has been recently renovated as it is the home of the World'd Most famous race (sorry rest of world,but this is not just a boast from an obnoxious Yank). The DERBY, not Darby.) But the purse for the Kentucky Derby is a joke. It's only $1 million US and just got raised from 750k a couple of years ago(not much by todays standards). But win it and you are set for life as long as your horse doesn't need Viagra. Louisville is becoming a typical US city with crime and decay and those are the areas that surround Churchill. Lexington is a horsey city with lots of cash and opulent horse farms on all the outskirts of the city. The whole city is circled by the interstate and roads extend out like spokes on a tire, only out instead of in. Each spoke contains the World's(that word again) most famous Horse farms. Calumet stands next to the track which is also on a spoke. Adena Springs, Claiborne, Stonerside, Pin Oak, Overbrook, Airdrie, Coolmore, The THorougbred Corp. all there. HUGE FARMS with white clapboard fences and green fields containing the best stallions around.

Ellis Park is a mediocre track along with Turfway Park near Cincinnati. Churchill runs a fall meet from Nov through Dec and a spring meet from the first week in May until July. They have great racing the first two weeks until the Derby is run on the 1st Saturday in may, when it becomes a decent track with good purses and second level horses from some of the top notch trainers. Order of bettability (Keeneland(lots of favorites though), Churchill, Ellis, Turfway(mostly runs at night here), and the now defunct BLUEGRASS DOWNS in good old Paducah near Illinois.) I'm also partial to Kenneland because I proposed to my wife there. They also have kick ass tailgate parties before the races begin. Like a football game.I've never seen anything like it.

The Breeder;s Cup is at Monmouth Park in NJ next year, if anyone dedides to come over for it, let me know. I live about 2 hours from Monmouth and 2 1/2 hours from Belmont and NYC. I live about 5-6 hours from Saratoga, but well worth the drive.

Saratoga,

It's under a thread: "Saratoga Samchaz" in the other forum. It specifically asks if you have any "systems" which have proved to be successful in the U.S. and may be viable here.
I see that you are "one for one" in your tipping prowess, getting Tommifrancs up the other day-keep up the good work!

Cheers.

I gotta give credit to Sportz on that one as he turned me on to him the run before last, but I did pick him on my own last time. Thanks for the compliment but I think ended up switching to Ilbach for some reason. Just found the program for Tues.night/Wes day and did switch thinking a better price, Ilbach's vastly improved barrier position from his previous 3 races (12, 10, 8) while the deep closer Tommifrancs was moving out to the 10 hole after starting in the 8, 4, 8, 1, +7, and not to mention Iilbach had run a good one against Tommi. I also saw Il had been starting against bigger fields while Tom had shorter fields, leading me to believe Ilbach's competitive spirit might make the difference. I think horses on the pace were doing better that day and Ilbach definitely is a stayer who looks to like a route of ground while Tommi fooled me into thinking he might like a mile or 7 furlongs best.(should have known since he's by REAL QUIET-Bob Baffert's 2 and 99/100% winner of the three legs of our triple crown, losing by a nose toVictory Gallop in the Belmont Stakes. I was there that day and it was a very somber mood after that race because it was SOOOOO close yet so far-26 years since we've had one)

This is an example of how I handicap most races. I try to remain flexible and not get too attached/loyal or hate a horse or trainer because he beats me. Instead I jump on the wagon if it's the right time and price. I did it the other night with Sir Dex and it paid off. Dex beat me in the Warwick with Dizelle and I immediately swore Dizelle would get him next time. When I handicapped the Chelmsford stakes I started to think Sir Dex might not be a fluke and has just developed into a nice 5 year old. He hung at the top of the stretch but made a second move to gamely get 2nd in a nose to nose finish that was closer than Real Quiet's Belmont. He isn't going to win by open lengths but he looks like he will always try his hardest. I Love that in a horse! Some horses need to win for their ego, they're the kind I like. Sounds laughable in a way but we sometimes forget we are dealing with living, breathing creatures whose needs and wants are alot like ours. The only thing about this kind of handicapping is, it can't be quantified like a true "system" but if I were ever able to put it on paper, I'd call it the "Don't let a horse with heart beat you again, you big dummy, system!" Now will I bet Sir Dex next out? I really don't know.

Concerning the "wait and Sprint" style, I think it is more effective on courses that are not as standardized as here. Especially when they UNDULATE like the Rise (see, I'm learning). If a horse didn't save any energy after running up hill he would stop dead. Our Steeplchase races run in the same sprint it out at the end style and most of these are run on varying terrain. I can't honestly say one is better than the other, per se.

Xanadu, here is a piece of advice that just came into my head while perusing the form for Monday's last day of racing at the grand old Spa- Saratoga. Labor Day weekend here in the states has always been a bit of a downer as it signified the end of Summer, the beginning of the new school year, and as an adult- the end of the upstate NY meet.


ASSISTANT TRAINER RECOGNITION SYSTEM

(nice technical name, huh)
Here in the states, as I'm sure in OZ, the big outfits have many horses. Now do you really think a guy like D. Wayne Lukas, Robert Frankel, or Gai Waterhouse are really putting their hands on their horses? It's not even possible here, where most big trainers have horses running all over the country. Top trainers become top trainers through heads up organizational skills and reading the condition books of all pertinent race tracks. They manage their team like a GM of a professional sports team and are integral to the team's success. But just like in sports, without a good game day coach, the team will lose. ASSISTANT TRAINERS are these head coaches. They give helpful hints to the big guy with his name on the program and this Trainer has the final decision, gting all the credit for big equipment changes, stretching a sprinter out, or changing the horses running style. The poor, hard working Asst. is quite happy for awhile, being the right hand man and bringing in some decent cash while having the responsibility of running a barn yard full of workers and horses. Inevitably, the realization that they are really running the show hits and they are forced to make a risky decision; strike out on their own or play it safe and stick with the security of the big time trainer. Competitive by necessity, the assistant moves on with one or two horses from a thankful owner and/or from the Big Trainer who knows he couldn't have done it without the asst. Big Time has been there too.

Follow these assistants when they go out on their own and realize that their stable won't be powerful right away. Look for the same angles that made the Big Guy such a winner and exploit the bigger price you will get with this relative unknown. The key to all this is learning the assistant trainers' names and keeping it fresh in your memory bank. no one else will even know who he is. I made some big scores on Todd Pletcher when he first broke away from D. Wayne Lukas and now he is the top trainer in America.

The one advantage to this system here, is the lack of in your face information about horse racing. There are all kinds of places to get the information you need and want but you just have to work for it. The casual race fan in America doesn't even buy the Daily Racing Form- this is the Rosetta Stone of racing and I truly believe you can't win without it. The little rinky dink programs sold on track are basically useless to me. Some of them don't even have any other horses listed in the past erformances except the winner of that race. People are ready to sacrifice invaluable information for the sake of saving a couple of bucks, which in the long run should cost them anyway. In Australia, horse racing is treated with respect and adoration as the great sport should be. But that means more people follow it, more information is easily availavble, and the average person at least understands the game. This cuts down on your element of surprise concerning the Asst sneaking in under the radar for a while, giving you your own private gold mine.


D. Wayne Lukas school of trainers-graduates
Todd Pletcher
Dallas Stewart
John Kimmel
even Steve Asmussen and Linda Rice had contacts with D. Wayne while they were learning the game at an early age from their respective parents breeding and pin hooking operations

Thanks for that Saratoga,

We punters here in Australia believe that we have the "best of both worlds" by having bookmakers providing fixed odds and the paramutuals(tote) to compare and choose the "value" odds.
This provides the smart punter with the opportunity to get an "edge" in this game.
What do you think and can't you open an internet betting account in this part of the world to take advantage of this opportunity?

Cheers.

Hey Saratoga,

What do you think about our colloquialisms here in Oz such as :
"the favourite was done like a dinner,"
"the leader has something up his sleeve"-we are aware of the trouble that racecaller, Michael Rona(Roner?) found himself in after uttering this colourful phrase in the U.S..
There are innumerable others that you may have encountered and are there any which require translation like "barry crocker"....meaning "shocker"....meaning an ill-judged ride.

Cheers.

Hey Xanny, Yep, I plan on opening an acct as soon as I have a little extra $$. I took the first step last week and re-opened my Phone Bet Acct here in the Philly area. (I hadn't used it since 1997 and opened back in like 1991!). I'm going to put some more in the Phone Bet in a little while so I can sit at home and bet the Aussies while talking to all you guys. I get so frustrated waiting for all the excellent info on here whil researchingthe web (like Barrier Trials, Steward's Reports, Stats, and Track Maps) in a rush before heading to the Turf Club. I'm not asking anybody to rush their tips,,,, I understand it takes an Artiste to win at this game, The best values are in the place and show pools over here in the later races (5,6,7 as we don't take them all the way through usually) I think I can grab the best of bothe worlds and have a great time instead of fighting with the Manager at club. I do enjoy the comradrie from the select few that play the Aussies-the smartest and best 'cappers at the track in my opinion, and grab a lot of info from them as well.Sportz gave me a couple of great internet sites over there. Does Australia have regular local bookies on the treack apron like in Ireland? And how about Turf Accountants in shops around town? It was great in Ireland on vacation, hanging out and betting horses. The best had to be going to Punchestown Race Course outside Dublin near Naas. A large 2 mile oval, I got to see some great's like Doran's Pride and Danoli (the pride of Neal and Foley as the Irish song goes.) There were a lot of "rats", "pigs" or "dogs" there also. (Our lingo for Bad Horses.