Living on the punt... Part1
 

Hi guys.

This is not a post intending to upset anyone, as punting is a game full of memorable moments that I would never wish to take from anyone. It is however a small collection of what I have learnt in the game over the past twenty seven years, posted up to give food for thought to those who would like to take their punting activities to a higher plane......... those who would clearly like to punt horses for a living, or very close to it.

First up, a few basic misconceptions.

1. So called big money "professonal punters" really are not. They are men propped up by money from their buisnesses, inheritence or high incomes, or from stake money hits from horses they own.
In essence they are big money gamblers, not pro punters.
They all have one major thing in common.....they did not get their money from the punt, and if they had to start from scratch and punt up a liveable betting bank they would soon starve!

2. It is a falacy that a massive turnover is needed to show profit over time.
This is for men who have that poor of a selection and staking method, that a very large turnover of money is needed to capitalize on a very skinny profit margin. In reality these type of punters last only as long as other money (or imagination) is proping it up.

3. It's quite false that a very high starting bank of $10,000 to $30,000 or more is needed to start a betting bank off. And false also is the thinking that the bank must be turned over and over like it was inside a washing machine.
The fact is a betting bank must be protected from heavy turnover!

Here is another fact, if the average man clears $30,000 a year in his regular employment, then to match that in punting earnings, he can start off with a bank as little as $4000. And still keep his job. Nirvana for the average bloke on the punt would be around $50,000 a year.....roughly $4000 to $5000 a month. A $6000 starting bank for that is plenty.

4. It goes against any real common sense that an ** School Teacher, Mathematition, Engineer, Accountant or any highly educated induvidual, can come up with a numerical/class/time rating system that leads to first a steady income, then on to great wealth.
It simply cannot be done.

Those are just a few misconceptions and there are of course plenty more, but I would rather go on to selection and staking methods, punting psychology, how to relax into a life on the punt, and why you should never except odds on any bet unless it can return you over $7 to the dollar.

I will post the rest up tommorow in Part 2, and then in Part 3 on Tuesday.

Happy Hunting
TheEasyRun

Hi TheEasyRun

Good stuff i will be interested in reading what you post.

Cheers
ubetido

Is this an advert - maybe the next ISP Empower?

i agree with everything you have said bar the first point.
i personally know of someone who has made an absolute killing from the punt and has gone from nothing to having a bank i would never see in my lifetime. although it would be extremely rare it has certainly been done, and im guessing more than once.

Hi ubetido.

I was going to pop it all up tonight but did not realize how tired I would get. Look forward to chatting.

Sorry about that Filante, I should have realized how it might sound. No I will not be selling, or trying to sell, anything.

Should be good to see what you have to say. Agree with most points bar the starting bank, i think most people want to go 'pro' so they can quit their $30,000 job not do it and punt.

The psychology post should be interesting. My guess is someone slighty reckless yet conservative at times who can express little emotion and move on quick would make a good punter. Ok lol thats just me! Am i good? Well not pro yet but i havent paid for a sat night out in months.

I also think you have to try to be complety different in your approach to gambling as 95% are loosers correct? If you do the same thing as those 95% you will end up just like them.

No problem Easy. I just thought you were going to turn into another one of those shonks who tell people they can make $5,000 a month.

The markets in horse racing are reasonably accurate and weighted against the punter (i.e. over 100%). To make $5,000 a month requires very good analysis and higher turnover than your $30,000-a-year type bloke could afford.

Cheers

Filante

Interesting read TheEasyRun, looking forward parts 2/3

1. So called big money "professonal punters" really are not. They are men propped up by money from their buisnesses, inheritence or high incomes, or from stake money hits from horses they own.
In essence they are big money gamblers, not pro punters.
They all have one major thing in common.....they did not get their money from the punt, and if they had to start from scratch and punt up a liveable betting bank they would soon starve!


Agreed. Usually they started with big money and know how to handle it.
So, although they are now pro, started with a big bank behind them.


2. It is a falacy that a massive turnover is needed to show profit over time.
This is for men who have that poor of a selection and staking method, that a very large turnover of money is needed to capitalize on a very skinny profit margin. In reality these type of punters last only as long as other money (or imagination) is proping it up.


Agreed. In fact there are many different strategies to pro punting. Some have very high turnover (volume of bets), but the most common is very few targetted bets. It's very hard to have a high volume of bets in a negative market and come out in front. Exotic punters are the only real exception, but then they must have a massive bank behind them to endure the losses.


3. It's quite false that a very high starting bank of $10,000 to $30,000 or more is needed to start a betting bank off. And false also is the thinking that the bank must be turned over and over like it was inside a washing machine.
The fact is a betting bank must be protected from heavy turnover!


This is where I disagree to a certain extent. One can start small and build it up, but if one wants to start making a steady income to cover the bills etc, there's no way a $4,000 bank will cut the mustard to provide a liveable income. Even if one was lucky enough to get 20% POT per month, and it's not going to happen every month, that's only $800 per month utilizing the full $4,000, one bad month and bang! One must be able to cater for long runs of outs and that run depends on strike rate. I agree with your point on turnover in relation to straight out betting, exotics are a little different.


Here is another fact, if the average man clears $30,000 a year in his regular employment, then to match that in punting earnings, he can start off with a bank as little as $4000. And still keep his job. Nirvana for the average bloke on the punt would be around $50,000 a year.....roughly $4000 to $5000 a month. A $6000 starting bank for that is plenty.


What sort of POT are you basing that on, I strongly disagree.


4. It goes against any real common sense that an ** School Teacher, Mathematition, Engineer, Accountant or any highly educated induvidual, can come up with a numerical/class/time rating system that leads to first a steady income, then on to great wealth.
It simply cannot be done.


Are you saying an uneducated person stands a better chance or experience and research has more weight?


why you should never except odds on any bet unless it can return you over $7 to the dollar.


Again, strongly disagree. The weight of bias against longer prices means you have to be far better than the market suggests. Backing the shorter end of the market has less bias against the punter and is far easier to overcome.

Not picking on you, and a lot of what you have written is excellent, I just disagree with some points.
Look forward to your response and further parts to your article.

Great thread easy money,

I agree with you that the real pro. punters are advantage takers of spot plays [good gamblers], not % grinders and they coildn't give a fig about roi's or pot's. Most aren't millionaires either, but battlers.

Big money punters are mostly well off mug punters [Kerry Packer was the top of this tree] and sure there are a few exceptions around for both these points, but most of us are born with 5 fingers on each hand. Naturally there are exceptions.


Your confusing education with intelligence Chrome. A smart punter will take an educated punter's shirt every time.

Any idiot can get [or buy] an education, but our level of intelligence is something were are born with.
Good 'gamblers' are also born not made, just like good muso's, chefs, orators etc. are also born with a gift for it. There is good money to be made from those easily convinced, that gifts some are born with can be learnt or bought.

EASY RUN
 

Great post and thanks for posting it.

I hope you comment on how mind numbingly boring punting for a living actually is.

Cheers.
darky.

Hi Guys.

I will see if I can answer most in Parts 2 and 3.
Remembering that these posts are about the average man making a living on the punt.

" Are you saying an uneducated person stands a better chance, or experience and research has more weight? "

Yes to the first part Chrome Prince, and yes to experience. Generaly the lowly educated do not take part in needless research like highly educated people do.

The highly educated, and those who deem themselves as such, are hamstrung the very minute they start their kick in as punters. For some reason they have an undeniable smugness that the racing game requires an intimate knowledge of equations, mixed in with superior intelligence, of which they have plenty of.
Mathematitions, School Teachers, Engineers, Accountants.....they seem to suffer the most with it. And when a highly educated man crashes, boy does he crash. If he is to succeed he must strip off all his smartalecness.

Now onto Part 2. The Psychology involved in Living on, or rather off, the Punt.

" I hope you comment on how mind numbingly boring punting for a living actually is. "

Boring is the last word I would use on punting for a living. Do not lock yourself away. I hope you find something in my next post that gets you thinking on how to rid yourself of boredom Darky.

I dont think he is saying that ChromePrince, the way it come across to me is that systems dont work. Which is a firm belief of mine.

A really good thread, I think it touches on that secret desire to make a living "without" working though. Personaly, it's something that I have aspired to for quite some time,( living off the punt that is) and although I have made a profit for nearly 4 years, going to that next step seems very hard to do.

Crash, I know the type of Character you're talking about, but on any one day they are either Rich or broke, in fact my Dad was a bit like that, we had periods of living like Kings, followed by periods of Poverty!

Anyway, roll on next episode!

This i find interesting. Ive always heard when its something you love its as if its not even work.. Surely living on the punt would free up time for other things you are interested in? Im not saying its easy at all where you get to lounge around all day, but you name your own hours for starters and work from home.

By the sounds of your post you live off the punt so good on ya, well done and maybe just try to find another hobby as the punt isnt it anymore.

Summary Part 1
 

1. Educated people with money are losers on the punt.

2. Uneducated people earning $30,000 per annum at their job, can earn $60,000 per annum, without any research or knowledge, by picking $7 shots.

and a $4,000 bank.

I don't buy it - sorry.

downbylaw,

Punting is generally a very lonely business, which is why forums like this and others are a buzz of activity. I don't think darky is saying he doesn't enjoy it when he's betting and the races are on, I think he's saying that there are vast amounts of time where nothing happens, and of course, there is pressure.

I don't mind posting that I'm going through a very tough time at present with my main method, you have to be very tough psychologically and be able to withstand the enormous rollercoaster of performance. I enjoy the punt, but do not enjoy the fluctuations of ups and downs.

There is nothing more gratifying when you're right and it all falls into place, the challenge is withstanding when you are wrong. Not just the bank, but the psychological effect - especially if the downturn lasts a while.

I find myself breaking out the data to recheck, questioning my method from every angle, where did I go wrong, why is this happening, was this inevitable, will it continue, should I stop and reassess etc etc.

Of course, after spending countless hours, the conclusion is always the same, it's just a part of the overall result and I must persist, as if I now stop, I will cost myself money when things even out.

One can have a huge bank, a red hot method, but the challenge is more mental than anything else.

Partypooper. Quite right, the mention of the average man equaling his wage and still keeping his job was a quick example to lead to quitting. And how you do not need a large betting bank to hold sway on $50,000 a year.

Filante. I did not mention uneducated people, nor $60,000. I only mentioned "needless" research, not any or all, and the only knowledge I talked about was the intimate knowledge of equations, and how they have no place in horse punting. Now..... $7 shots? good god man, you wont make a living at those odds........it must be over $7 to the dollar!

You dont have to buy it Chrome Prince as it's given away. You will however have to accept it one day.

Highly educated system boys are we?

Agree Chrome Prince
 

I had the same problem this year in the baseball. I was flying at 58% and looking to 60-65% for the year on previous years results, but it fell into a big hole slowly and ended up not betting on it at 55%. That still gave me a pto of 6.5% so im not complaining at all its just the previous years were over 10%. When i saw the plays losing i noticed 80% of my teams were getting more hits than the opposition. So something was wrong i thought, but not to be it was a rough patch and i went back to just halving my bets and only betting on the best bets that the system provided. Well since then ive striked at 70% and the yearly best won for the 5th year in a row. So all in all im happy but there are months where you think what is going on and yes i was a victum of this hence going through previous stats that took me 12-14 hours a day of study and working on the system. In the long run though the selections just had a rough time and I learned a lesson from it. Probably one thing to remember is that we are all always learning!!! Cheers Breadman

We all have different methods and approaches, granted. But when I see such puzzling and illogical statements, I have to disagree.

To make $50,000 per year on a $4,000 bank is impossible - fact.

Mathematics is the very foundation of punting. It's not about how many winners you pick, it's about the average odds compared to strike rate and the overlays that exist. No place? One day you will have to accept that it is one of the most critical factors in being successful at this game.

Over $7 to the dollar on a $4,000 bank to make 50,000 per year - geez you are optimistic. Perhaps a touch of reality might not go astray.

What do you suppose the longest run of outs might be over $7.00.

How much would you have to invest to make $50,000 per year.

The bank would never withstand it - mathematical fact.

G'day CP,

Post19,Your very perceptive view on the punting psyche was spot on.....!
It is not easy spending many mind-numbing hours studying form and implementing profit-making opportunities.
But then again....who said this was an easy way to riches........?
If the individual truly believes their method is worthwhile and will win in the longrun then it makes all the effort worthwhile.
My mentor was the incomparable Don Scott whose methods via his publications, were instilled in my attitude to betting/punting at a very young age.
These have put me in good stead although I have adapted my methods as racing has changed over the last couple of decades.
Two last insights that I will share with all.......
1)class always will tell in the longterm....!
2) flexibility is the key to your approach to investing. Sometimes, "overs" on the win or place provide opportunities....then on other occasions exotic betting provides sound profit-making opportunities.
The punter(s) must remain alert at all times!

Cheers.

Easy

1. You agreed with Chrome Prince's use of the word "uneducated".
2. You gave a figure of $5,000 a month profit = $60,000 per annum.
3. No research is ever needless - if an avenue of investigation leads you to the conclusion that something doesn't work, that is sometimes as useful as finding a winning method.
4. All racing analysis has at its heart a system or a matrix of systems. Statistics, systems and history give people a basis upon which to analyse form. A knowledge of mathematics, statistics, physics, econometric modelling etc. can form the basis upon which sytems are worked out - this cannot, as you suggest, be a disadvantage.
5. In the end, the making of a bet is an engagement in a debate of probability in which you believe the happening of an event is more likely than the odds suggest. If you have no education, training or research to give you an indication of that probability or if you do not have access to information compiled by someone who does, you will lose.

Enough from me. Your drivel has attracted more attention than was warranted.

Post some $7+ winners and I'll withdraw the drivel comment.

Cheers

Filante

Filante,

Your point 1.
I think easyrun meant intelligence was a vital ingredient to successful punting, not well educated [except in punting of course]. Some of the biggest dummies around are well educated.

Pittsburgh Phil only went through primary school, but he was obviously a very intelligent pro. punter.

Grollo the Italian [Grollo industries] was a pheasant who never got past grade 3 and if you look around, the world is full of very rich, intelligent but uneducated self made billionaires and our taxi's and restaurants have loads of well educated drivers, kitchen-hands and waiters who'll never be worth a bean:-))

Righto Chrome and Filante. Enough of your misquote's.
Read the following sentence below that I wrote in the original post again, then read the misquote's you both posted, and get a grip on the figures on which you are twisting around.

" Here is another fact, if the average man clears $30,000 a year in his regular employment, then to match that in punting earnings, he can start off with a bank as little as $4000. And still keep his job. Nirvana for the average bloke on the punt would be around $50,000 a year.....roughly $4000 to $5000 a month. A $6000 starting bank for that is plenty. "

The very reason you two can not smell the roses is that your both stuck in a void of numerical system punting that even with a massive turnover, simply does not produce enough profit for the average man to live on. They do not work. They cannot. Why will be explained in Part 3. And for cristsake do not misquote anything out of it.

What you call 'my drivel' is in reality race punting law.

Everyone has different theories and methods. There is not neccessarily one winning way. Could be thousands of different winning ways. Some of what you write is excellent but the smug self-righteous attitude is tiresome.

cheers
umrum

Im just glad to see some action here other than endless tips for a change.

I think their saying easyrun is, you could up a few tips in the $7 range and their attention might be a bit more sincere !

The EasyRun,

I did not call what you wrote drivel, I just challenged the mathematics of it - it simply didn't add up. I can challenge what you've written without twisting what you said.

The very reason I cannot smell the roses is that I broke my nose in a car accident and lost 90% of the sense of smell - no other reason.

Rather than myself or Filante misquoting, it seems you are now backpeddling rather than explaining how it can be done and posting hard numbers.
The reason why is that the numbers just don't add up.

Don't get me wrong, much of what you have posted is excellent, the rest leaves a very large question mark.

I am often amused that others can make decisions on what sort of punter another person is, just by going on what they've posted on a forum.

Let me tell you that I am not just a system punter. There are many facets which make up my punting.

I use systems.
I handicap.
I follow horses that are on a watchlist.
I use other methods and lay horses as well.

I enjoy systems immensely, but that is nowhere near an accurate description of the overall picture. I believe there is a place for everything in this game, providing you can identify an edge.

Amazingly, most of my systems are actually based on sound handicapping principles - imagine that!

The common misconception seems to be that a system punter is one that relies on longshots or bets numbers or follows jockeys or trainers or similar, again, that is way off base.

There is no misquote at all - you stated that to match $30,000 per annum, all you need is a $4,000 bank.

It still doesn't add up how you word it.

I'm new here but have watched this forum for a long time and have to agree with downbylaw ,it is now basically tips and comps.
I think The EasyRun has a lot of courage for posting what he/she has and I look forward to the next chapters.
It always amazes me that all the knockers always come out of the woodwork if someone does not punt in the traditional manner ( you know the usual way which most punters do and lose ).
I don't have a clue what the next chapters are going to be but they should be interesting and should bring more out the woodwork including all the Einsteins and their maths.
I note a comment that $50K a year is impossible on a $4000 bank, my answer to that is wanna bet?
A long time ago I took note of what was said by a past member of this forum and actually correspondend with him.
Take it as you will, because it doesn't matter to me at all, but I no longer work.

All the best to all of you and I suggest you let TheEasyRun finish his/hers final chapters, you never know you just might learn something as I did, from my mentor.

I'm not discouraging him from posting Chika, nor am I knocking him, but you don't have to be Einstein to identify basic errors, when you've been around the block a few times.

You may have been lucky and turned your $4,000 bank into $50,000, but I'll guarantee it was not win betting, or if it was, it was pure luck, continue in that vain and you bank will defrost very quickly.

The bottom line is that nobody should be recommending trying to win $50,000 off a $4,000 bank on 7/1 or greater shots, no matter who you are or what your method is.

I'll wait and see what roses are revealed though......

Gotta agree the 7/1 has me bamboozaled but lets see what happens in part 2 and 3.

As I said should be interesting.

I also applaud TheEasyRun for posting his(or her) thoughts. Is has been a good read. I also appreciate that sometimes the stuff that gets written on this forum can get a bit snakey. However, all that said, I don't think that replying to someone's comments in a disbelieving or disagreeing way necessarily makes you a "knocker". I was brought up thinking that everyone was entitled to their own opinions but likewise should have some way of supporting their point of view. If we all thought the same way the place would be pretty boring. Just my opinion.

yep i agree totally chrome it just can't be done (especially consistently). plus the $7 is ludicrous a well

Backpeddling Crome.....from what? and stop saying fifty to four......its fifty to six. And yes I know you cannot achieve it.

I was going to go onto the Phycology side of punting for Part 2, but I will leave that to last. Instead I will get straight into Part 3 - Selection and Staking. I may not have it done by 10.00 pm, when I was originally going to post up tonight, but it will be up by Tuesday.

Ahem.

Great thread i hope it continues.
But posting anything like theses types of statements are always going to attract questions and opposing theories...
Debates are healthy and educational ..
hopefully we keep to the facts and not get personel....

cant wait to find out what this 7/1 staking and selection method is all about.

quite a challenging post and well worth watching.

when you say "i know you cant achieve it"
does it mean you chrome or all of us.

i know someone who cant achieve it and i dont mean you.

This is by far the best post in ages & has managed to drag me out of my self imposed exile.

It lasted longer than I thought it would before the nay sayers came out and I am very surprised that CP, someone who I have almost totally agreed with over the years, seems to be the main knocker.

Chrome, I've told this before and I will repeat it for the record. I quit my full-time job over 5 years ago and have survived totally from the races ever since. I opened a Betfair a/c with $3000, and lost almost all of it in the first month. My balance got down to $500 & I have lived off this amount, building it up, withdrawing regularly & never having to deposit again.

FACT
It can be done.

Cheers
Mark