Party Poker Questions
 

Has anyone else noticed strange things at party poker?

Since i withdrew money from my account my past 1500 or so hands have been discraceful and full of bad beats. Every decent hand i get is always beaten no matter what it is.

My full houses get beaten by 4 of a kind. My 3ok gets beaten by full houses and so on. I have all my hand logs for the past week and have just emailed party poker. I know poker is a fair bit of luck aswell as good play but damn i've never know so many bad beats in such a short time. Its happening that often its becoming predictable.

Ad another hand. 5Hands into a tourn and the only hand i played i flopped a straight went all in and got beaten by a flush when 4 diamonds showed up on the board. This is just happeneing to often to just be bad luck.

Racingnovice,

Have just joined, will keep an eye out. However i am not as brave as you as i don't play for real money - don't trust computer dealer, prefer to see the sneaky SOB in the flesh!

And again this is total crap. 9 hands into a tourn 1st hand played again i had K high flush and got beaten by full house.

This is happening every ************ hand i play now since i took money out of my account.

No money involved - why worry?

There is money involved. I just emailed party poker with a demand for answers. I can understand bad beats every now and then but every hand and always the first hand played comon? It's happened for over a week now.

Sorry, i thought you had withdrawn all your money. In that case i don't know what to say. Hows about playing with "Play Money" for a while to see if there is any change in your fortunes. I don't doubt what you are saying, it's just i find it hard to believe they would be so obviously stupid.

I did play with play money for a while. Went from well over $1mil play money down to 200k within an hr. I play fairly tight also so i dont play stupid hands.

If it is happening with play money as well - what do you do? Either this is the worst run of luck in history or something is going on. I must say though that i seem to lose steadily as well, win just enough to keep me from leaving but that could just be that i am crap at poker! This is why i would have serious reservations about giving these peolpe any hard $$$$$. You could always play with play money until your luck changes, try win back some of your real money and when you do, give them the two fingered salute as you leave.

cash-out curse
 

Yes, I too have suffered through the "cash-out curse" at Party. Everytime I cashed out I would go on a run of bad beats for at least a week, sometimes longer, that would chew up the remainder of my bankroll. After re-depositing a couple of times and having the same thing happen, (build up my bankroll, cash out, bad beats galore) I decided cut my losses and pull the plug.

I moved my $ to Pokerchamps and Pokerroom. I like both but have had much more success at Pokerchamps. The software is a little different at first but once I got used to it, I prefer it over the others now (can run 6 tables in a single window). Pokerchamps currently has a 100% deposit bonus up to $250 if you are interested but the offer ends July 22.

Just happened again. Was winning the hand until some idiot hit a 4 on the turn and another on the river. I emailed party poker and this is what they had to say last night. I also had pocket K's in this tourn that was beaten on the flop by a straight. I think i'll take your advice chip and move sites.



Thank you for contacting the Customer Care Team.

We appreciate the fact that you have advised us of several instances of bad beats you have faced .And, we admit that some of the hands in which you were beaten were extra-ordinary!!

Read: - tough titties, we have your money.

Very happy i never gave 'em any $$$$

.
 

Not trying to insult you guys, but you don't have a good understanding of the variance involved in poker. This is what I do for a living (HU at stars, and omaha 8 and NLHE sngs at party). Some days are crazy. 2 hands in a row yesterday I lost AQs to AQ and AK to A6, both all-in preflop (sng). ********** happens. 2 days ago should have been an amazing day if the probabilities went the way they should, but I just suffered outdraw after outdraw. This is very normal. It just seems bad because you seem to experience them so reguarly. Remember you play alot more hands per hr online than in a live game.

People cry rigged on party every few minutes, yet there are plenty of pro's there who have played hundreds of thousands of hands who would disagree. You guys are just being silly.

Can't agree more with you Mr J.

I remember in a game of live poker years ago - Sevens Up - having a straight flush beaten by someone who drew three cards to what I assumed was a pair. He got an ace high straight flush.

It was pot limit. So I can tell you I was in an ugly mood after that hand!

Yeah - see what you're saying Mr J.

Was up half the night last night playing No Limit Texas, some very unusual final pot splits - nothing untoward. I thought i had won with a king high flush and indeed i had however when it came to the division of the winnings other players received portions in varying unequal amounts to mine. The only thing i can think happened is that i had checked so as not to scare them into folding after the flop and they raised/bet etc. These rounds of betting were all seperated into stacks which were then divided. I think since i did not contribute during these rounds therefore i was not entitled to receive these pots even though my hand was superior. Does this sound right? No i suppose not, to remain in the hand i would have had to call at the very least however I noticed this happening on multiple occasions.

It's a bit the same as online BJ (yeah there is rigged software, but I'm talking the big groups like microgaming, crypto etc). You play 450 hands an hr so you see some crazy things. The sort of variance I never saw at a casino simply because you play SO many hands.

Doesn't mean you shouldn't be p!ssed off about it. After a series of outdraws I usually let out a few, but it beats keeping the rage in and letting it out on your cpu later ;)

I play sngs (single table tournies) and just to give you an idea of the variance (and sngs have less variance than ring (cash) games):
-I've personally experienced 500 sngs breakeven. This is like playing 4hrs a day (8tabling) of ring and being even after 2 weeks (say 30k hands).
-One guy I know has had 700+ (think it ended up being 1100) breakeven run of sngs. This is like 3 weeks of ring, 4hrs a day (8tabling).
-Someone I know who is playing the WSOP circut this year (VERY good) has dropped around 50 buyins at one stage (this is the equiv of losing say a 400bb roll at limit holdem).
-I can name a few others who have had 40+ buyin drops, and these guys are very good, longterm players.
-I experienced a 90bb drop at omaha 8, which has MUCH lower variance tha limit holdem. About 75 of this was bad luck, and the rest from some poor play.

If it can happen, it WILL happen eventually. Bad beats suck but unfortunately thanks to maths they exist. Only thing we can do is be happy we got our money in there as a big fave.

Party doesn't really need to rig it's software. Last I heard they were raking in 1mil+ a day. They are also listing the company on the (london??) exchange.

ahhh I hate variance.

Big poker rooms not rigged
 

The last few postings have hit the nail on the head. The big poker rooms are not rigged, but because of the huge number of hands per hour you will inevitably get heaps of bad beats.

What you have to realise is that all of us tend to remember our bad beats more than our lucky wins.

Also, it stands to reason that the stronger the player, the higher the proportion of bad beats to lucky wins because the stronger player gets their money in the pot when in front more than the bad player. To have lots of lucky wins you need to be a bad player who is coming from behind a lot.

Those of us who try to play well win a lot of hands just by playing the cards... we raise after the flop with top pair etc and maybe some fish limps along with a flush draw despite not getting pot odds. We win the hand and forget about it because it all went 'normally'. Maybe the fish is thinking, 'How come I never seem to make my flushes?' or 'How unlucky, beaten by one lousy pair when last hand my two pair got killed.'

One of the biggest amounts I ever lost online was due to paranoia about collusion. I was caught between two players who were raising and reraising after the flop and I was pretty sure my two pair was in front as there was no indication of a pocket pair pre-flop, just two late position limpers. I smelt a rat and kept calling, thinking they were trying to scare me out. I thought it highly unlikely from the board that either player could be sure enough of being in front to keep reraising a raiser, so it smacked of collusion.

As it turned out, one was slow playing pocket Aces (slow pre-flop at least) because there was no strength indicated (hoping someone paired up) and the other had an inside straight flush draw after the flop, so they were simply playing their cards. The guy with the pair of aces pulled a third on the turn and won the pot over the unlucky straight flush guy, who showed his 10d 9d, leaving me wondering how I could have been such a first class imbecile.

I've never made a mistake like that again!

Guy,
Managing Director,
OZmium Pty. Ltd.

Party Poker is legitimate
 

I agree with everybody else, poker is completely random and with as many hands that are being dealt at Party, bad beats are going to happen. Party hasn't become the largest online poker site by being fraudalent to its players. They are as fair and honest as the Pope.

JMM

There is a Party Poker promotion on this site.
Moderator.

Silly question
 

I've only watched poker on telly or played with friends so excuse my ignorance but what sort of percentage or cut do the poker sites take? I looked around the party poker website but couldn't work it out.

The "rake" as they call it, i am told that at party it operates on a sliding scale, a percentage of the total pot or of the winning hand. This system tends to take a higher percentage from the lower limit tables (5%) and less from the larger (1 or 2%) to keep the "rake" at anywhere between 50 cents to $5 per hand. In some circumstances the max rake will be capped depending on the number of players and pot limits.

You should give it a try, play with fake or play money as they call it - but a warning it can be addictive!

Here is something i have been doing a little reading on,

Robot players - computer programs that play against humans with all the added advantages of instantaneous probability calcs and minimal mistakes. Now here is a worrying trend. Are these 'bots' prevalent or are they another sore loser myth?

I must add that these bots are not in use by any reputable poker company, just by individuals seeking to gain an advantage.

That sounds interesting. Where did you find information on that?

Personally I'm not too worried about bots, because it would be hard to make them stronger than the good players. The calculations are not too difficult for humans to master in Texas Holdem (especially as we can have odds tables next to us when we play if necessary) and you have time to think or use a calculator if you want to.

This means the robots are left with the disadvantage of being essentially formulaic. This could be overcome to some extent by a clever programmer but I think the human brain is a very good instrument for assessing some of the less quantifiable aspects of poker. Here are some of the aspects where I think the top brains can at least equal computers.

Changing gear at the appropriate moment. (Computers can be programmed to change gear but getting the timing right might be tricky as there are many factors dictating how tightly to play at any given moment.)

Picking a player's style quickly.

Using well timed comments or showing of cards to get under another players skin.

Recognising a steamer quickly. (A computer might put them on a pair of aces, when a good player recognises their previous bad beat and sees the possibility of them being on tilt. This could make a slightly anti percentage call a good call.)

Logic decisions that are hard to program. (A human might think something like, "I think I'm only 45% to win this hand if I call his all in, but if I fold I'm crippled and unlikely to get a paying place, whereas if I call and win I eliminate a player and come at least third and double my money.") It's hard to tell a computer all the possible situations where things other than the percentages play a part in making the correct decision.

I might be completely wrong about this but I'd back a pro player head to head or in a tournament against a computer. I'd like to know where to get info on it though.

Gattaca,

Just one article, two parts at "majorwager". A US site i believe, if i find more i'll let you know. Only thing is they can be programmed to play non-stop within certain parameters and never get tired, make silly mistake etc. Although saying that the major Poker companies, at least reputable ones have the means and do try to stamp it out. If caught = deep do-do, suspend you're account and keep all your money.

Thanks, Mad.

It made interesting reading, but there was nothing to convince me that I should be more scared of bots than good human players.

It also made it clear that the poker rooms have plenty of weapons at their disposal for countering the use of bots and you would think they have very good reason to do so. If a perception arose that you can't win playing online because of the prevalence of bots, the human players would start to drop off very quickly and the rooms would lose millions of dollars.

I'm not going to worry too much about the opposition... I'll concentrate on making myself a better player!

G.

It's just bad luck. Because there has been a bad run in the past doesn't mean the next 20 hands or whatever will give you a good run. What has happened in the pasr does not count.

Hi HILLBILLY,

Don't get me wrong i am not referring to any particular time i have lost, bad beat etc. Just an observation made from an article that was written is all.

All this talk about rigged games etc!

It's simple really, you don't go all in unless you know your hand is UNBEATABLE - especially with real money!

There is always a chance that someone will have a better hand than you, especially with a full table, and especially if your hand is not UNBEATABLE.

You can try your luck with a very good hand when the odds are in your favour, but you have to be prepared to be beaten.

Every example listed by the thread starter was an example of a beatable hand.

The odds of being beaten are increased because of the number of players holding cards at an online table.

This is exactly the reason why I only play with a maximum of four other players.

It increases the chances of a strong hand winning, but I can lose unless my hand is unbeatable.

I've seen the bluffers come and go, they get away with it a few times, but ultimately they cop it from someone with a better hand. I'll let a bluffer get the best of me for a few hands, and then bankrupt them when I have an unbeatable hand ;)

I counldn't agree more Chrome Prince ... Where do you normally play ?

I am a Royal Vegas and Absolute poker player mainly because that is where I get real money for free.

I play at Party Poker.

Real money for free?

Tell me more wesmip1

:D

Chrome Prince,

I play at Absolute poker for the freerolls. You can win cash without putting up any cash.. but it does cost you time. I have won a few and got some money and then I play the cash games to build it up.

I also play at Royal Vegas POker which has a $10 free introduction. I built that up pretty quick at the 10c/20c tables and playing SnG games at the $2 tables.

Absolute Poker has freerolls every 30mins but they are popular. To win it usually takes around 4 hours. But if you are going to play for fun anyway why not play for free money, if you get knocked out just join the next freeroll.

Hope that helps.

Chrome,

Played tonight in the Austrlaian poker league which is a free league going around Synday and south coast of NSW. I decided I would only play good hands which were Ace and 8 or higher, King and 10 or higher and Queen and Jack. I would also limp in from small/big blind when I could.

The game started at 7pm and I was knocked out just over 3 hours later. There were 165 players and I ended up 10th. The most important thing was I only played 6 hands all night and won all but 1 hand which I had to go all in becasue I was short stack and I hit King Ten suited . The big blind beat me with Ace Queen and she hit an Ace on the flop and proceeded to get a full house. All night my highest cards were 6 and 9 except for those 6 hands. I think i saw the same "2" and "3" cards 30 times plus in the space of 3 hours.

But it shows how you don't have to win many hands to progress ( espeically in tournaments) and had I hit a couple of more Aces or Kings in the final few hands I would have easily made it a lot further but the cards never came and the blinds ate my chips.

Anyway I wish I had made 2 more spots as instead of getting 82 points I would have got 165 points.

BTW First prize was $175, second was $75 and third was $50.

If you play alot on freerolls I suggest doing a similar strategy.

Good Luck.

wesmip1,

I think the key is as you have done, only play hands when you feel the odds are in your favour.

Some players feel the need to play every hand and hope for some miracle straight or similar, even before the flop.

I was given some tips on strategy, which has seen me do very well...

1. Do not go all in before the flop, unless you already have a potential winning hand in front of you.

2. Do not raise after the flop or call a raise, unless you already have a potential winning hand.

Example: I've had 7h 8h, and the flop came 6h Kd 9h, so that's a potential open ended heart straight.

I folded a huge raise, and of course the 10h came out, but in the long run it has saved me heaps, the odds of getting the next needed card are very slim.

Wes, where'd you play? I only ask because I've gone to one of those things at the Bayview (Gladesville) in December.

I would've gone to more but unfortunately work has interfered.

Mofo,

I play in Wollongong (Steelers club) once a week.

I ended up about 50th tonight from 157 players. I had a AhQd and raised double the blind. i had one caller but the pot was huge (blinds were 400/800). The flop came down Qc Td 6s so I went all in. He called and showed a AK os. the next card was a 3 and the last card was a K.

I would have been chip leader had I won that but I guess these are the breaks. I couldn't believe he called with nothing on the table.

Oh that was only the 4th hand I had played in 90 mins. Its amazing the crap cards some people play. I had won all my previous 3 hands easily and doubled up each time.

Good Luck. Its all fun.

Hi CP,

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Maybe you're exagerating to make a point, and if so I agree with you, you can't go all in with just any "good" hand and hope it holds up. You might win the most pots that way but that's hardly the point. Eventually you'll come up against someone with a much better hand and you'll be put to the sword.

So much of no limit holdem depends on reads - not just on wether you have the nuts.

Example:
At a small poker site I play at occasionally I'z in a no limit ring game and had a pair of 9's in middle position. UTG limped in, I put in a pot sized raise and the button raised all in.

Against a tight player I'd know I'd likely be dominated or at best a coin flip - so easy fold. As it was I'd noticed this player had bet large frequently, and in the last orbit had won a hand all in pre-flop with something like K7o. I called and it was the right decision (he held J8o or something ridiculous).

I don't want to overstate this but it's important to be observant and notice other players styles. Poker tracker software helps and can be a useful aid (not essential but I'd estimate 80% or more winning online players use software like this).

Anyway, continue...

Well you got you're money in there when you were a big favourite and that's all you can ask for really.

Well done.

Any chance you'll make the final 80 or whatever it is... to get into next years Aussie Poker Millions?

Mofo,

Prize this season is WSOP in Las Vegas. Need to be top 100 and I am about 1125 I think out of 9000 players. I doubt I will make top 100 as I don't go every day. You need to get about 3000 points to make it which means winning at least 2 or 3 tournaments or placing in the top 8 at least 5-6 times.

Next Season starts April I think.

Mofo, I'm not saying allin on any good hand, I'm talking someone raising an initial bet to large proportions, but say you are already halfway committed and have a pair of Aces or Kings in hand already.....do you fold or call their bluff and go allin?

I'll go all in, as I have a better chance of winning with a pair in the hand already, ad there is also the chance they'll fold. So I have a better chance of winning.

Winning the most pots is critical, but I know what you mean, there will always be someone with a better hand eventually. The idea is to sniff them out and pull them in slowly so they are committed, but if I bet $100 on a pair of KK's preflop, and they raise it to $300.00, and I have $2,000 on they table, but they have $500, I'll go all in against them to bankrupt them.

I've got a stronger bank, so providing I bide my time and bet hard only when I have an advantage, probabilities say I will have their money.

If I were to go all in every single time I had a strong pair, then sooner or later I have to lose.

It's judgment that also plays a part in the process.

I must admit i havent had any probs with Party Poker...i only started out with 2 small deposits and have withdrawn 10 times that amount..
i usualy only play tourney's ...and sometimes 3/6 tables when i bored.,,

I havent played at any other site but i'll be looking at some of them just mentioned..thanks

Hi CP,

I think you're quoting me out of context here. In the paragraph you quoted I was actually agreeing with you, just putting it in different words.

The example you have with a pair of Kings is easy. You've got the best hand 95+% of the time here so of course you go all in. All I'm saying is that sometimes you can have much lower holdings that KK and still be in a dominant position depending on your reads.

I don't like to be too contradictory and so I hope you don't mind me pulling you up on one point. That is that winning the most pots definately is not critical. Winning the most money definately is.

Good luck at the tables!