Pinnacle Sports Australia
 

This may be old news so feel free to delete this if there's already a thread.

I had a chat today to a manager at theoddsbroker and he said Pinnacle Sports Australia is opening up soon and going to offer racing and fixed odds, and most importantly, not ban punters.

Excited.

Wow, this could really be something if it's true.
Wonder what their takeout will be though?

Not sure. Glad he said they'll work by the same model as Pinnacle usually do though and use their winning customers to sharpen their lines/odds. So far it'll be Aus racing and Sports, but I told him I'd really like international racing too at some point. We'll see..

Not sure how they can get ahead of that though, the sharper bods will dump on the overlays or arbs in the last seconds?

I dunno. He was adamant in stressing two things, 1) you'll be able to get set for huge limits (bigger than Topsport etc) and 2) winners are more than welcome.

If true that could put a few of the pommy blowins in a bit of strife...oh the joy;)

Pinnacle just make a book and adjust their lines very quickly and correctly. They do an amazing job of getting the lines right. Movements on their odds can be quick and rapid though so overlays don't hang around for long.

IF and a massive IF, they use the same takeout as exists in their models, it will blow all competition including Betfair out of the water for good.
You'll be able to back horses without levy, premium charges, and at reduced commission. How on earth will they get around the horseracing levy though?

Yes, he said they will be using the same models. He said they have the license for Pinnacle Sports AU and mentioned things should get off the ground in a few weeks. Anything can change though, so I've asked to be emailed with updates. I'll put them here.

Website testing starts next week. Their aim is to be up and running for the World Cup.

Any word on progress Pat?
All I could find was abseiling and rock climbing lol

Yeah I keep doing a google search and find that site too - I'm sure they'd want that domain name.

I'll email the guy and see what the update is, however the other week he just said they're testing and hope to be good for the world cup especially.

Ok so testing begins next week. I've been asked to help them, along with a number of others to be one of their pre full release market testers. I'll keep you up to date with when they plan to go live.

Sports are offered for the first 2 weeks then racing thereafter.

Sports testing this Thurs to Sun. Gearing up for the world cup.

In consideration of this news and referencing CP's post from 'Laying the Field",
"However, it's all been purely because the traders hit the Aussie markets and made it unprofitable, then Premium Charges hit and levies and traders left and we're back folks"

Where do you think this will leave the exchange model? As in the Backers will depart to Pinnacle, knowing they won't be limited. That leaves the Layers with no one to exchange bets with, hardly. Yikes!!

I'm thinking Pinnacle could get a few customers. Just a few lol.

Maybe this will force others to up their game.

You'd be hoping that the introduction of pinnacle would force the others to up their game, but at the same time that depends on how many of the 95% who aren't profitable decide to move across. That will depend on a combination of marketing, joining bonuses, word of mouth etc etc. If they do start to gain some traction and take reasonable market share then the current bookies have no other option but to step up their game.

I was thinking along the lines of stop limiting winners, arbers and banning altogether. Probably won't, but if Pinnacle turn out to be the best in all areas (odds, massive bet size limits, no limiting or banning), never know..

I predict it will be like the USA races, no action until the dying 30 seconds and then you'll be able to lay first and second favourites at reasonable prices, everything else will have no value and be massive gaps between back and lay prices.
Rhe original exchange model was brilliant, then they floated and the number one priority was growth. It's like nightclubs, give all the girls a free drinkcard and twice as many blokes will follow and drink twice as much, because the blokes buy the girls drinks anyway. Betfair just don't get this method of marketing.
Make Betfair the most attractive place to be with best odds, least commission and traders will flock back carrying with them new clients and liquidity.
Some CEO's have 1000 degrees but no nouse!!!!

1% of 10 million is much better than 10% of $10,000, especially when that 10% has to be spent on arcade games, sportsbook and advertising to get people in. Word of mouth is the best and cheapest investment any corporation can make.

Seeing as BF do not limit, I am not sure why backers would leave to bet with a bookie that in all likelyhood will be offering lower prices than those currently available at BFSP.

I welcome Pinnacle in the hope they deliver a long & painful kick in the bum to the current batch of corps, but suspect there's a bit of an overreaction going on here regards their potential impact on BF.

Look at the actual turnover for betfair on Australian markets for the last few years. It has still grown for Australia. Even after the turnover tax, the premium charges, etc. Its growing. Betfair has more charges to pay out to regulatory bodies but there market share has not dropped.

From the annual report:


Its all available in their last annual report. They even made a profit in the Australian region.

So even if the markets are not there earlier for the "traders" they are still at least matching as much as they were through the previous years and growing.

The exchange isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

Exactly UB.

& if Packer & Co use a bit of nouse & tweak the Australian model a bit & ******** off the PC charges, we could well see the exchange evolve.

Another thing which hasnt been raised as far as I know, is that Pinnacle will have to deal with the upcoming race field fee increases the same as all other corps.

The second coming they may be...or not.

Funnily enough I spoke to someone from Pinnacle several weeks ago, as did Pat, and some others I'm guessing, and I did not get the same story or feeling that Pat is talking up. In fact I was told that Pinnacle would not be able to help me, as an arber, at all. Honestly, I don't know what to think.

That assumes all their fixed odds will be of lower value than Betfair 100% of the time.

No, it assumes nothing, just reporting what I was told. I hope they do offer great odds and ban nobody, I just can't see it happening myself.

Well given the definition of an arb and that you've been told it won't help arbers, it does. I guess we shall see.

My understanding is that a sharp bookie is not useful for arbing horses. For sports, you still need one or more un-sharp bookies to take the other side and not ban you.

Just from my own experience I used to arb with the main Pinnacle site on sports all the time, especially tennis matches when first put up.

With regards to arbs alone - i've never come across a sharp bookie. For me, that would just mean copying betfair odds. I've seen a multitude of arbs across every bookmaker i've ever used.

You're right Pat, I realised what I was saying was wrong for sports and edited my message just as you replied. :)

I've come across bookies that were relatively sharp in one or more racing codes.

This is all really puzzling.
Of course Betfair revenue is up, they are covering more races, trots and greyhounds than they ever have and added more inplay options on those races.
Then they have increased premium charges and levies.
Revenue is not profit.
Any company that reports revenue rise is playing smoke and mirrors to it's shareholders.

Revenue minus total expenses is profit.

Liquidity is down, both here and in the UK, the gaps between back and lay prices and market percentages in all but the last two minutes tell the story.

& yet BF still provides on average the best prices if you are a backer, & the option to lay if that floats your boat. & do not ban.

Maybe BF is slowly but surely going down the gurgler, maybe not, will worry about it when I wake up one morning & cannot logon. Until then will continue to enjoy getting prices I cannot get anywhere else.

That happened to me a few times when I was getting started, quite distressing. With Betfair's future uncertain, best not leave more money than absolutely needed in BF accounts.

Who says its uncertain? Betfair are making a profit. They are not going anywhere.

I meant Betfair Australia, which isn't making a profit. But yeah I was being dramatic.

Betfair Australia is a 50:50 joint venture between Betfair and Crown Limited. Net revenue was up 13% in the year, driven by a 23% increase in Australian racing revenues. Following the decision of certain states to implement turnover-based race field fees, Betfair Australia increased the base rate of commission from 5% to 6.5% on Australian horseracing. This change in pricing structure was the driver of the increase in horseracing revenue. The revenue growth, however, was insufficient to cover the increased race field fees and our share of underlying operating profits reduced to £1.4m (FY12: £2.4m).

As stugots just showed. They made roughly 4-5million Australian dollars profit (covert from pounds to aussie dollar). Its obviously going just fine and growing each year.

I apologise, I was wrong. I read the following article on the SMH website which reported a $1.6m loss for year ending April 2013 and assumed they were talking about the AU operation:

http://www.smh.com.au/business/crow...0318-3506r.html

I wouldn't have a clue how to interpret an annual report so thanks for the correction.

That article is so incorrect. The year before betfair made the following in its annual report:


So betfair is making lots of money year in and year out. The SMH reporter must not have done their research properly (which took a whole 5 seconds).

Now can we think of any reasons why a paper would incorrectly report such a thing? Hmm, let me take 5 seconds to come up with half a dozen;)