THE GREATEST OF ALL
 

Truly the great mare makybe diva is the greatest, i have thought this for along time and today just proves everything. she smashed records all over the place. she went from 2 melb cups to a 1400m race which she won then to win the cox plate and follow it up with record breaking weight and creating history in a third consecutive melb cup. all i cay san is she is a true champion and there wont be another to replace her in my mind..

cheers to the diva on a truly memorable career.........

agree, fantastic horse, but...
 

How did we wake up this morining with a DEAD track? I am beside myself how this could be allowed to happen. I would be VERY VERY dirty if i were an opposing trainer. Fair enough, the decision was a good economic one, extra 20K people because makybe's there, but is it really fair to the little trainer who cannot put so much pressure on the committee? It seems like bad sportsmanship to me.

Another thing, is it just me or has Makybe won the race over the last three years exactly the same way! Bailed up on the fence, six off the leader, then the heavens magically open and she gets a soloon pasage! I have never seen so much luck in my whole life but they do say hard work makes luck. Maybe bossy has an odour of something! Gauchi was tracking him on turn, and went to the outside losing 3 lengths while bossy stayed close to rail, could have cost him the race, but how could he know the heavens would once again open for Makybe! Maybe it was just meant to be.

not that im complaining, i jagged the tri for a half with my workmates (split 4 ways), dirty I didnt put a F4 on though. I did have On a Jeune on top as well though, so would have liked it the other way.

Comparisons to Pharlap, I dont think so. Compare the two stories and legends of Makybe and Pharlap. I really do struggle to feel any emotion for the win and racing is at my heart. i marvel at the feat of the horse, but not the story.

PharLap:
A horse nobody wanted
Poor breeding
Struggling Trainer, poor facilities
average owners
a time of desperate need
carried 6kg over WFA to win cup
Won a G1 on every day of cup winning carnival, cantering
Won over 70% of starts

Makybe:
Well bred
Passed in at Auction, because santic wanted a bigger profit
Owned by a man worth a squillion
Trained by the countries best trainer in the best facilities
Won cup carrying 2.5 kg over WFA, her third in a row
Won 30% of starts

Lets not get carried away, just enjoy the event and the national celebration of racing in this country.

Sorry Tarbs mate but i can't let you away with that.

You ARE complaining - full stop.
Phar Lap is a legend, not one person here or anywhere is disputing that fact.
On a Juene was a great run, i was very impressed with the way the horse hit the line after 2 mile.

However mate this horse has just won three, yes three, Melbourne Cups plus a couple of other insignificant little races to boot, Cox Plate a couple of days ago springs to mind.

You tell me when we will ever see that again and by whom and i will apologise for tackling you on this issue.

I agree, as I said in my post, that it was a great feat, the likes of which may not be surpassed for a long time.


I am just saying the 'story' of makybe diva does not grab me, like say perhaps if Lieca Falcan had won, and went onto be a great stayer. i just love the underdog and the battler i suppose.

Perhaps it will in the coming weeks, just my initial thoughts

And you're perfectly entitled to them Tarbs,

I'm just coming from the opposing camp that thinks she is great, i doubt i will ever see anything like her again soon.

Although i bet Santic is happy he wanted more money for her at the sales, turns out it was the correct decision!

What will her off-spring be worth crossed with a Zabeel or some such leading sire?

Boss can cry all he wants...got the track conditions and pace that he wanted...if he didnt win I reckon there would have been a lot of people wanting to make him cry...hehe...The Diva is a great horse no doubt but not too sure about the greatest...personally I backed her all to win cos thought it wasnt the best field and yes I think shes good...made a bit of $$$ off her lol! Mind you thought they may as well have given it to her not complaining though! :)

Oke Doke,

Not wanting to start a ranting and raving contest but name a better horse than her running around in this country at the moment?

i dont care what you ppl say she is the greatest... the melb cup is a feature race all around the world and this mare has won it 3 times. smashing records from everywhere... she went from 3200 down to 1400 bak to 2040 and then bak 3200...

The best horse won on the day from a very average field [where the real talent was too young and inexperienced for the race] and we all saw history being made, but boy-o-boy lets not start comparing the Diva to Pharlap. 3 Melb. cups is awesome for that race [only] but the Cup is a canter for most of the race and then a 600m sprint and I forget the last time it was truly run. 3 Cox Plates would have been far more impressive.

Lets look at 'Might and Power' perhaps, due to similar start/win history ?

Might and Power 33: 15.7.1
23 group races for 11 wins
G1 starts 14 and won 7
G2 starts 6 and won 3
G3 starts 3 and won 1

Makybe Diva 36: 15.4.3
25 group starts for 11 wins
G1 starts 14 for 8 wins
G2 starts 9 for for 3 wins
G3 starts 2 for nil wins

Lets not get carried away or even start mentioning Pharlap [or a heap of other greats]

Pharlap only won 1 Melb. Cup, so what ?

Interesting thread here guys... I have to agree with Tarbs about the track condition at least. why would anyone have the sprinklers working on a dead track? Excellent prefers firmer ground and the connections were hoping for high winds, sunny day and a dry track...i dont know about On A Jeune..but is is shades of Moorabbin footy club and the heavy watering the night before every home game, when St KIlda were wooden spooners, and used the mud to slow down the opposition.

Makybe Diva won easily and had everything going for her. Amazing record now that will be next to impossible to beat or equal. WE are truly lucky to witness such a great horse, and Pharlap is still the better horse in my book.

Who cares whether she is the greatest of all time or not she is a champion horse as was Northerly, Sunline, Might and Power, Octagonal, Saintly, Tulloch, Phar Lap, Bernberough, Posiedon & Carbine. I appologise for any other names I left off the list it was quick and off the top of my head point is these horses were all great and with the exception of a few they will never race against eachother at equal weights at equal level of fitness on the right conditions. I am sick of hearing she is the next Phar Lap why do we have to have one why can't she just be Makybe Diva isn't that good enough?

Exactly Raw Instinct, its the same i feel about Motorsport, they are always looking for the next Michael Schumacher. But... whats the point. There will not be another Phar Lap, there will not be another Michael Schumacher. There however will be another horse/driver who leaves an impact on the sport in a different kind of way.

"Who cares whether she is the greatest of all time or not she is a champion horse "


Agreed.
Are there any plans to send Makybe Diva overseas to race?

I see that Tarbs isnt the only person complaining about the over-watering of the track...many trainers are not at all happy about what happened..and I don't blame them.

It's a real shame that such a great achievement has been tainted with such unecessary controversy. It did not have to be this way and the responsibility lhas to lay firmly at the feet of the Flemington officials. The watering of the track pre race day was an issue well before the raceday..and there was even televised coverage of it in a news item here in New Zealand before race day.

allllll you ppl whinge and whinge about the track conditions. THEY FOLLOWED TRACK POLICY.... its racing law. if you dont like it then stik it. she cracked records over GOOD conditions. track had nothing to do with it. rock hard is unsafe but they were prepared to run on good. as lee sed, the trainers who r complaining finished 15th plus anyway so they should just shut their mouths. makybe was a deserved winner and the best horse won. only 10 days before she won the toughest race of her life mind you.

Bordi the track was dead when the cup was run it wasn't upgraded until after th cup was run. I personally have no problem at all with them watering the track however watering it to a point where the track is rated dead that is more than just making the track safe that is making it to suit some but not others. Did this contribute to who won? Probably not they just weren't good enough not one of them however a horse like Xcellent who absolutely hates the cut out of the ground may have been better suited with it being a good track from the start of the day.

I amnot saying she didn't deserve to win Bordi as I have said since the race she kicked there heads in no other way to put it and I thought bar a couple of runners they were very ordinary runs.

I am worried now that the future staying ranks or atleast for the next couple of years aren't that flash Leica Falcon and Xcellent although both solid runs they weren't spectacular lets not forget one was in reciept of 8kgs from the Diva and the other was 4kgs better off they were entitled to get close to her infact they were entitled to beat her. From what I have seen of the 3yos so far I amnot impressed Benicio, Duelled & Headturner look solid prospects but I doubt there is a cup winner there maybe there are still some good ones wrapped up waiting for the AJC Derby I hope so for our sakes.

Raw,

It was definitely a good track when the cup was run. Just because it doesn't say that officially, doesn't mean anything. The track didn't magically become good AFTER the cup. The track was absolutely perfect at cup time, not too dry, not too wet, just absolutely spot on to give every horse it's chance, and to minimise the risk of injury. Perhaps you and others are forgetting that Makybe Diva ran an incredible 1.58.3 on a dry track in the Australian Cup this year. I have no doubt that she could have won if the track had been harder, but it is policy these days to try to make sure that there is some give in the ground, not just for her, but for all horses.

Sportz I did say that she would have won anyway but you can see where the owners of Eye Popper and Xcellent may have been aprticularly about the incident. I was actually all for the track being watered had no problem with it the only reason it became an issue is because Freedman and Weld wanted it done. I am sure the track was good but it should have been changed before the cup the thing I found a bit funny was that there were a couple of wet trackers seemed to do better than most thought they would have early in the day Enzed, Vintner, Bel Danoro (only run on heavy so no idea there).

She wins either way it wouldn't have a mattered I amnot tyring to diminish that and I amnot trying to say that watering the track was a bad thing I thought it was a good idea just thought there was a bit more water go on than I originally thought was going on there. If noone had known about this then it wouldn't have been an issue and Freedman and Weld are as much to blame for that as anyone they didn't have to make such an uproar about it all they had to do was keep it quiet and say it behind closed doors, As the VRC have said they have been watering the track for ages so this would have happened anyway just maybe not as much as it did.

Just heard that they've put 3mm of water on it today and once again it's now rated Dead, so everyone can plainly see that it wasn't a policy especially employed for those 2 horses.

No I knew it was something that they have always done or atleast have done for quite awhile anyway.

y should freedman keep it quiet? if its policy its policy. stuff what the whinges think. he's aloud to speak his mind and he simply statd a good track will do but policy should be followed.... i have also discovered he had plans for 4 months to run the diva so perhaps it was just a bigger build up and loved the attention. to have the diva in ur camp would be amazing..

by the way raw.... for track policy to stand, im pretty sure that at 6am the track MUST be rated either dead or slow in order to produce a good- dead or dead- good track. that is why it was rated dead. there was no water put on it during races or between races im sure. vrc track policy was put in place as should be and the greatest horse proved why she was so great....

Mate your barking up the wrong tree here I don't have a problem with it it is Freedman and Weld that I have the problem with but to be honest I am sick of hearing about it personally. Kerrin McEvoy wouldn't speak to anyone after the race yesterday and I have since heard something to the degree that he thought the track was a disgrace looked fine to me be he was basically saying there was crap flying everywhere.

As I said I have no problem wit the track being watered I have since read that the penotrometer was at 4.85 now I anmot sure of this but they have said that is on the slow side of dead however I have no idea about that Envoy winning race 3 would back that up very strongly though.

Raw, have a look at the sprint which step toe wins. They come down the outside rail and shower the crowd in sh1t. The track looks like it is absolutely soft as butter and gets cut up like no tomorrow.

I haven't looked at the tape again to be honest didn't get to see to muc there yesterday between having blurred vision at the track and struggling for a clear view on a screen at any stage I will probably go over it later tonight.

it does not matter how the track plays... the point i am making is, is that for the track to meet racing standards it has to be dead- slow by 6am that day. the rest is up to the whether. they cant control it, they can only do what they r supposed to do... and they did that. i say full credit to the grounds staff. look what happened to mummify, barely a moment and many others in which hard tracks have ruined or nearly ruined careers. track policy was put in place to produce a sensational track and that it was...


everyone whinging, get over it, the diva is the greatest....

I cant see the point of comparing horses across eras
Phar lap was a great horse so was tulloch,northerly,might and power,sunline etc
makybe is a great horse,but who cares whether shes better or worse than any of them
When you look at other sports do you say Roger Federer is better than sampras or better than bjorg or bill tinden(bill who?Won US OPEN 1920-1925)
There all great players horses etc
What stands Makybe Diva apart is she won 3 cups in a row that makes her special.kingston town won 3 cox plates,Royal snack won 4 Moe cups :)
Shes great as they all are in their own way,lets stop comparing and enjoy the moment
cheers

Couldn't agree more.

I agree with Rabbitz on this one.

Comparing horses from different era's is a pointless debate IMO. We can all say "Oh, she is/isnt better than phar lap", but he isnt around to defend or prove the claim either way. So Makybe Diva is Makybe Diva. She is a damn good horse, she is a champion, and she is now a legend. She is the greatest I have ever seen being I wasnt around for Phar lap, but I wont go as far as to say the greatest ever. I wont even say that about Phar Lap, simply because it cant be proven either way.

Furthermore, its hard to say she is better than Sunline because she won 3 melbourne cups, because 3200 wasnt Sunline's distance. So now we have she is a champion and legendary stayer.

As for the track, I figured that since Xcellent actually figured in the finish, it cant have been that bad. The Jockey had a completely different story about what happened to Mr Celebrity (and IMO, it is all starting to sound like sour grapes).

Besides, I have only heard that Freedman told reporters who asked daily that he would scratch the Diva if it was too firm for the good of the horse. I dont recall reading anywhere where it says he demanded the VRC water the course at all. I have heard that from Weld a lot because "Media Puzzle was never the same horse". But I only ever heard Lee answering reporters questions, which he was asked constantly.

I also doubt the "Scratch the Diva" was a ploy to get them to water it either. Probably more he didnt want to risk another finish the likes of poor Mummify at caufield. If he is suddenly more protective of his horses, then I can certainly understand where he is coming from.

just to prove how much some ppl are sore losers.....

the track was watered to b rated dead at 6am tues. the sun was out and it was a scorcher of a day and ppl say it wasnt a good track. how is that possible wen there was water out on it for todays oaks so it was rated dead at 6am and with thunderstorms and a few showers throughout the day along with overcast conditions it was still upgraded to good.

ppl gotta get over it. the track was good and the mare was way to good for the others.....

Bordi I don't know if you know this or not but the Penotrometer reading for this morning was 4.50 on cup day it was 4.70 there is a fair bit of difference there. I think you are missing what people are complaining about though mate it isn't the fact that Makybe Diva won it is the fact the track was watered to a degree where it was on the slowish side of dead and now it is the VRC who are going to be copping it from now on, They have now set the precedent that no track at Flemington will ever be a good track from the start of the day and I think we can safely say that isn't going to happen. That is the reason why people are complaining not the fact the track was watered but it was the ammount of water which went onto it. Then when Bossy a bloke who I normally have an enormous ammount of respect for calls out trainers and bookies alike this morning for the complaints they have made about the track just made things a hell of alot worse.


Once again they aren't complaining abpout the fact the track has been watered it is the inconsistency in which it has been watered look at the penotrometer readings from the 3 days so far Derby day 4.45, Cup Day 4.70, Oaks Day 4.50 now tell me that they maybe didn't go a bit over board.

Comparing horses
 

I CAN see the point of comparing horses - it enables us to hypothesise how our current hero would've gone when matched against our earlier ones.

Interesting to see Crash bring up the Might and Power vs Makybe Diva debate, and he's spot on - as I mentioned in another thread, she would not have kept up with him. Don't let your emotion get you carried away, and realise the truth:

Makybe Diva would not have kept up with Might And Power.

Not that it's a disgrace, greater than 99.99% of the horse's to ever win races wouldn't have kept up with him.

Just the way it is. He's the best horse of the last 25 years at least, her included. For those who'll dispute, before you do, line up how many Group 1 fields she beat by more than 3 lengths, and line up how many he did, and who he beat, then tell me she'd have kept up with him.

Well if we are going to compare for comparing's sake, then I would go by times, not lengths. 3 lengths in front of a field of 20 means nothing if such and such other horse did it by one length but 3 or 4 seconds quicker. That says more about the lack of quality of the horses behind the 3 length winner than it does about their own ability.

Also, if we are going to compare Makybe with Phar Lap, then it bears mentioning, unlike Phar Lap, Makybe's heart is of a normal size.

Funny how she came 4th in her first start in a maiden at Benalla. Makes you wonder next time you go to one of those country meetings that maybe you are witnessing the start of another wonderful career. No one would have believed that day that she would be as good as she is.

I think you'll find that the forecast for Cup day was for finer hotter conditions than the other 2 days.

u tell em sportz

I never said Might and Power was a better horse than the Diva, I was just getting the Diva's group record in perspective, I will say though she has been a very LUCKY horse with very little comp. in most of her races. She never had a Sunline [or any other greats] to compete against and Might and Power was retiring when the Diva kicked off her career.

Sunline had 45 starts: 31.9.2
23 Group wins and 13 of them were Group 1's Makes the Diva look a bit ordinary dosn't it. Apart from all the hype about the Melb. Cup, as a race it's very ordinary.

There was 3mm of unexpected rain that added to the watering for Cup day, so it was just that little bit wetter than what was aimed for.

Hi Bordi,

I think mention was made here earlier about the only trainers complaining had horses finishing 15th or worse. That is not true. The connections Of Excellent were far from happy and it ran third...in other words they felt that it was a genuine contender on a firm track, and who am I to dispute that?

There is no denying that the track was overly watered. It is the aim of racing clubs to provide a Good track for race day... not Dead or worse.. when you have trainers complaining well before race day, you know something is up..

Look, I think it was fantastic that Makybe Dive won. I also think its pretty awesome to see a horse win at 1400m, the Cox Plate and the Melb Cup in the same campaign.

Crash makes a great case about Might and Power and Sunline...

It's just so hard to compare horses..., times and winning margins included...in my opinion.

As they say "racing is the winner".



..

w924... i think you will find i also mentioned that it cant have been that wet for xellent to finish 3rd. his cox plate run was more then evident that he cannot compete with a soft track, hence why the track must have been far from soft. i also mentioned that for a GOOD track to be rated for the day, and with those whther forecasts, it is racing policy that the track be rated dead or soft on 6am of the racing morning.

ppl arnt paying attention to policy... if only you read abit more you would understand as it was all stated by the racing manager. he stated that for the last 4 years a policy has been put in place to provide the safest racing track they can. this means with a 32 degree day forecasted that the track MUST be dead or soft at 6am.....

and for someone to say that makybe has only won 7 group 1s and that it is not as special as might and power needs to get his head checked. we are not talking easy group ones, we are talking 3 MELB CUPS..... fields of vinnie oe and elvis, 1 COX PLATE.... oen of the toughest fields we have seen in modern times, 1 SYD CUP, 1 AUS CUP..... against elvis, 1 BMW..... against grand armee...... all against decent competition.

ohhhhh and one more thing... how can ppl say it was favourtism to the great mare when they gave her 58KGS.... it was a weight carryng record, which speaks for itself. this is why it makes these cup wins so special. she won them in a handicapped event.

Crash you are right - Sunline was a better WFA mare, esp at the Valley. If a peaking Sunline were in last weeks Cox Plate she'd have won.

As for the Melb Cup's, they weren't that strong.

She's a champion, but lets not go over the top. She reserved her best for 3200m, not 2000.