Lay betting on betfair?
 

G'day

So, new to all of this and have discovered betfair and lay betting.

From what I saw of the demo, you are allowed to bet on a horse NOT placing first. I'm thinking, hmm this could be easy money :). How many times have you bet on a horse to win and it doesn't come in?

Just looking at Sandown Race 1, it has Lay odds of 85 for No 8 Gatekeeper. Going off the tab odds its listing win odds of about $11 so not a favourite to win. Surely it can't be as simple as just betting on the horse showing the highest win odds for a lay? Like in some races there are horses showing $30 for a win, so market sentiment is that this horse will not win. So based on betfair lay betting I'd bet a lay on that horse and then laugh all the way to the bank?

Am I missing something, coz it can't be this easy?

You are right, it isn't that easy.

If you wanted to win $100 you lay the $30 chance.

If it loses you win $100

If it wins you lose $2900....do'h.

it seems to me betfair is letting you be the bookie. and we all know how much bookies make (ie lots!).

sure bookies serve to lose more, but they tend to win more than they lose right?

Still that $30 chance is highly unlikely to win....

I guess to minimise your liability you lay bet horses in the teens? Since they are not likely to win but in the off chance they do, you aren't out too much?

On betfair Gatekeeper is going for 26 unit for a win and 90 to lose. I just don't get it, how can it be at such long odds for both? Surely if its at long odds to win then it should be a short odds to lose since thats likely to happen? Also selecting the lay bet for Gatekeeper and staking 2 units my payout is $180 and my liability is $178. How are you working out the liability?

It seems to me that if all I need to bet is 2 units to win 180 units on the log shot as I'm betting on it to lose then its the road to easy money? Tho I have my doubts. I'm obviously missing something.

well gatekeeper came in last... so if i understand correctly based on the betfair odds for a lay i would have won $180 for only $2 outlay... pretty good.

NO you win $2 less 5% comm. The 90/1 (lay price) is the prise you give to someone else, so you lose $178 if it wins.

The back price is the odds you want
The Lay price is the price you give to someone else.

ok so if i want to win $100 i "Stake" 100. So I get 200 back if I win the bet? Or if I lose the bet and the lay odds are 90, I have to pay 9,000?

How do I know my odds for me to win on a lay bet? Do I just get the back odds when I win the lay bet? Are there no odds for my win for a lay bet? So effectively I just back what I stake plus my original bet? So its a 100% return? (E.g bet 100, Return 200, Profit 100)?

Pengo


....buddy ...ive been looking for you....missed ya pal.

Lets pretend your a bookmaker (you are laying) and i'm the fearless punter.
You have a horse @ $20 that i wanna bet on. I give you $10 and you ....being the bagman yell out to your boss "$10 on the 12 @ 20's"
you now write me a ticket that says Loulou $200 ($10x $20 odds)
you have my $10
If the horse wins i come back and get $200 off you. The result is you are down $190.
If the horse loses i dont see you again and you have in your pocket
.....how much of my hard earned ???? .......... $10.

When converting all that to betfair you type in the backers odds ($20) and then the backers stake ($10) this will auto sum next to it and read $200 << this is what you will be up for when Lou lou wins. You wil also see all the other horse have a little $10 next to them in green. that means if any of them win you win $10. you will also see $200 in red next to loulou's name which means if it wins you are down $200.
trial it with 1 horse for $6 and see what lights up

pengo

preferably try on Adel race 3 number 1

>>> but tell me when : )

oh i see this makes sense as far as the matched bet stuff it talks about. So I need there to be someone else out there willing to bet 100 or 100 betters betting 1 unit for me to win 100 if I stake 100? Or does it have to match it to someone who is staking exactly 100 units? So betfair doesn't pay me like TAB does? Its just other punters?

So effectively if I lay bet I don't need to put up anymoney coz I'm the bookie?

Thanks for the rundown King. I don't have an account with betfair just using the guest login to check it all out.

errrr...no!

Go back to the example>> if you did offer the $20 odds and let someone on for $10 you need to have the $200 in your account to cover it.
When you hit the bet button to finalise it all it will automatically deduct the $200 from your account << even though the race hasnt run yet.
Think of betfair as your mates girlfriend >> who holds the money << whilst the bet you have with your mate on who can eat 5 hotdogs the fastest is finished.
They are the mediators who hold the money.
You have to put the money up front and out of your account until the race is over, If you win and the horse loses you will get back the $200 + $10 of the punters losing bet back into your account.
You cant offer odds and bet unless you have the money that you can give to betdfair to hold until the race is over.
THis stops you from making lays all over the place with a bank balance of $0. If you lose those bets and all those horses win how would they get the $$$ of you? >>> you have to have it in the first place then pass onto betfair as the holders / mediators when applying each bet.

How old are your children KC? Betcha less then 6!?

pengo go down to APrk race at 18:42 tonite.

look at Natty Nitro
someone is laying it @ $8.40 for $8
this means they are letting someone back it to lose $67.20. they are asking the punter for $8 to bet on it.
if the horse wins the layer here gets your $8
if it loses and you are the one backing it you will collect $67.20

dont forget the backing side (blue colour) contains the layers bets. this is where you as a punter or backer go to see what odds someone is giving you to back the horse they dont like.

ok confused againt, if i'm paying someone the lay odds.. then why are the back odds different? Also is the money under the odds the total money that has been bet at those odds? So if say lay of 730 is showing only 5, for me to get matched i'd have to play a lay of no more than 5 units?

Who sets these odds and how come the lay odds would differ from the back odds? Who is getting the payout of 730 when the back odds shows say 38

I use that adelaide race u mentioned as an example.
No 10 Benefit Road is showing a back odds of 38 and Lay odds of 730. Why isn't the back odds 730? As thats what I'd have to pay you if you were to back Benefit Road. Instead if you were to win your back bet you'd only get odds of 38..

confused :(

lomaca

they are actually easier the this.
i've had 1 bet in NZ about 2hrs ago. i cant find anything...time is on my side !
the youngest >> Chappelle >> your close enough : )

read the APrk post pengo

the layer or bookie set the odds if you wish on the blue side
OR
the backer can ask for odds >> the pink side.

as a layer you either do 1 of 2 things
1. set your own price on the blue side like the bloke did in APrk (he is letting someone on @ $8.40 << his own odds....his own decision...jhe is the bookie / layer
or
2. let someone on at the odds they are asking for (the pink side) this side is the backer asking for those odds. its a matter of whether the layer / bookie wants to say yes.
this is why the pink side is always more in price. Thats the side of the hungry backer who wants better odds
the blue side is where the stingy bookie / layert sits only wanting to give sml odds

who sets the odds ? >>>> either can. thats the luxury of it all.

hang on i think the light bulb just turned on, after having a play with the betfair system.

I see its not like tab where i can't set the odds. Betfair lets me set what I want for say a win bet (I'm the backer ie betting like at tab). So for example for a back bet I can set the odds to whatever say the favourite on the tab is showing 1.50. I could put up $4.30 but this won't get matched by any layers out there. So this would explain by the two columns differ. Whereas the lay column I'm saying, hey punters I'll give you say 200-1 if you bet 5 units if this horse wins if not I get to keep your 5 units. So as a layer I wouldn't put up short priced lay odds even tho its a high possibility it won't win, as I have to make it worthwhile to the punter to give me his 5 units?

Correct?

Person making a "back" bet sets the lay price
Person making a "lay" bet sets the back price

So all betfair is doing is when there is a match of two sides of that bet we have a bet?

You: I want to bet 10 on No 8 to win at odds of 3.40
Me: I want 10 on No 8 to lose, I'm willing to give odds of 3.40 to anyone out there willing to bet 10 units at my odds.

Sorry I'm a bit daft :) but I get there eventually.

PENGO

I have just lined up my kids and neighbours kids with leftover NYE party poppers.
We are about to explode them in honour of your name.

You have also just knocked Benny off the #1 spot....again.....

WELL DONE PENGO

but go easy big fella, laying is like betting...theres an art to it...dont just presume because you can pick losers easier then winners that you will win by laying everything. Punters rely on newbies with that idea in their head on betfair.

yeah, i'd only ever risk i could afford to lose if doing a lay.

Have you tried setting up a competitive lay on a long shot and had it matched ?

I was thinking to minimise liability, it would be better value to set one up for horses showing tote win odds between 5-10. You could offer slightly above the tote odds and they are outside chance horses and so there should be at least someone out there looking to bet on them. Also your risk is minimised as its not the highest odds for a win. The most you could ever lose is 1,000. I've lost more on the stock market :) but made more too heh.

Anyway I rekon theres more money to be made being "bookie" on betfair than being a punter. To each his own tho. I might have some fun with this on paper and select a horse and see how many times I would have to pay out. Prolly would just use the current back odds on betfair.

Setup a system to look at whats in that range, check its form and see if an apprentice is onboard then setup a lay on it. Also would have to be a big field to ensure my chances ;)

Pengo

I dont get into laying. saturdays not bad but every other day you have to supply overs most of the time.
Again as i said earlier >> its an art. i win backing from yrs of notepadding. Layers win laying from doing the same thing over time. you either do one or the other...properly.

Well put it this way, if as part of my laying my losers end up being race winners... I should just switch the system to win betting :)

ok lets see how i go:

Sandown Race 7
No 5:
NOT A COPY, LAY, STAKE 6 @ 13.5 (LIABILITY 81)

what have we created.........

good luck Pengo.

how good are your school holidays goin Pengo....... geez i love watchin this kid play

what part of this fine country are you from Pengo?

wicked, did not win.. so I take my 6 dollah! :)

Will definately have to whip up a spreadsheet, start on paper with a betfair bank of 1000 since I will need to have money to pay out if I lose a bet. And just bet 6 for good oods for outside chances and maybe a long shot here and there.

See if I survive a week or more before going bust on paper!

Kind Cugat, geez I don't come across as that daft do I? I haven't been at school for over a decade!

Originally Gold coast, now reside in Melbourne. Where its too hot today and my evaporative cooler broke so really feeling it!

a few more of those $6 collects and reverse cycle is just around the corner my friend.

i had a friend whos 47 and has been out of school for 10 yrs now ........

LAY
Randwick Race 7
No: 1, ASHKABAR
STAKE 6 @ 16.00
LIABILITY 96

Yeah baby, road to riches lol... If only it was that easy. My aim is to stake 6 and risk no more than 100 per LAY bet. I check what the odds on tabonline.com is and see what it has been going for on betfair, if its within a dollar or two then I'll put thru the lay bet at the betfair price that has been traded the most.


I rent :(((, getting a portable off ebay this week! Spend $600 to use it a couple times then before you know it, cool weather for the next 8 months ... Expensive living :)

Bring on winter I say.

SHOW ME THE MONEY :)


Time to make it interesting, use my gains to increase the liability to 112! LOL

SANDOWN RACE 8
no: 3, HURL
STAKE 16 @ 7.00 LIABILITY 112

PAID :D

Thats it for now, 3 out of 3.. wooot going to be a millionaire hahaha

Outlay 289
Return 317
Profit 28
About a 9.6% return on ya money

I'm going to try and build up a bank of 1000 from returns on paper (bank would have started at 100 to fund your initial lay). Once at 1,000 take on more risk to increase returns to make it interesting. For instance make a large stake for lays showing tote odds of between 3-4 (favourite and outside chance). For example stake 80~ @ 5 & 100 @ 6. Looking at betfair the large bets are made on the smaller odds, so I'll need to offer up a lay for either a favourite or a horse with reasonable form. So there is a strong possibility I lose my money but at the same time increase my returns. By having two lays, I minimise my losses but also amplify my gains. Worse case scenario the outside chance comes in and I lose 600 but I'll get back 400. So preserving the bank somewhat to play another day :P. The good news is, if both don't win I have just doubled up the bank.

The theory bind it all is that to build up to 1K bank from stakes of 6 would mean a lot of bets, so hopefully would mean that I become comfortable and confident with what I'm doing and the system is alright. Also worse case scenario I lose it all (say the 1k bank) well I only ever risked 100 (if done for real) since the 1,000 was made up from returns not your own capital.

I'd love to see how I end up on paper over the course of a month thats for sure.

just taking a quick glance at sandown today out of 8 races only 1 favourite came in first. There might be some money to be made offering good odds for the race favourite for a lay. So far you'd tend to make more money than you'd lose.

Something else for me to play with.... I wonder what the starts are for 2007 where the race favourite came first.

Don't overuse the first option but!

lol