BF workout again
 

Today 66 races take opening favs. = 21wins and 46 places

wins Tote = $57.05 BF (after Comm.) = $57.38

PlacesTote = $70.60 BF (after Comm.) = $71.43



maybe they meant .0020% better odds?

PS Places return VERY unusual, most days = big losses!

What BF price are you using ?

For example BF tote, BF SP or BF Weighted Mean, or a price you obtained on BF?

Each will provide a very diferrent result.

You have to remember the price you use may not be the price others obtained.

I do agree with you though that after commission there is not much difference with the favourites. To profit on betfair you really need to know your prices and where the value is.

for the win = BFSP

Place is final BF price (presuming that it would average out) but also did the same test using Opening price + 20%, 50%, and 100% as a minimum ,accepted
none fared any better

I agree with you...

But something to note is they usually promote a race where the race was 20% extra. They gt the price up by covering the liability on the fav in that race as per their current promotion.

They are clever in how they promote it.

Party your ongoing vendetta with Betfair seems a bit odd when you consider that BF are quite open with regard to comparative prices.

It's simply a matter of opening the BAT and looking at the "Overview" section and they will give you their prices in comparison with NSW/tab-S/tab and Unitab.

For example yesterday (Tuesday) there were 22 races with Betfair having an advantage over all three tabs in only 6 races.They consistently had an advantage over one or two of the three tabs throughout the program.

The strength of Betfair is not with the SP,unless for some strange reason you enjoy taking unders.

eg.Yesterday in the 6th at Goulburn ,,Kings Council,, closed at...........
B/F $4-20
NSW $3-80
S/tab $3-90
Uni $4-10
Yet during the course of the betting $5-40 was available with Betfair.

I dont have an axe to grind with any betting organisation,nor am I being paid to either promote or denigrate any of them. I have to say that after being fleeced by various state government tabs over many years and trying several off course bookmakers that Betfair has brought a breath of fresh air to off course punting.

But if you don't like them,the simple solution is to go elswhere

agree totally syllabus23 & i repeat this part of your post to emphasize that bf is not a tab or bookie, & a bit of work is required to use it to ones advantage, a concept many punters struggle with i believe, being so used to simply plonking their cash down & taking what they are given -

"The strength of Betfair is not with the SP, unless for some strange reason you enjoy taking unders."

criticism of my criticism good stuff, healthy debate and all that, I'm, definitely
not been paid honest (I wish) actually syallbus23 & stugs I don't agree with your assessment of BFSP, I reckon its one of the best products on the market,..... not on its own; BUT with a minimum price stipulation its the bees knees, so why do you have to bet unders wouldn't you just set the minimum price you are prepared to accept, bet and forget, no sitting in front of the comp like a stunned mullet, sure sometimes you wouldn't get set but you don't want unders anyway do you?

My preoccupation though, is that many people seem to think that BF is the best thing ever when in fact best tote/sp (or better still BOB) actually beats them at the lower end of the market according to my research.

all bet very differently party, however sounds like you just presented an argument to counter your own criticisms, well done:)

as to 'stunned mullets' - you've just described probably 1/2 the working population!!

each to their own party, get past the **** advertising ALL the different promoters use, find out what works & go with it.

alas, that's what started this argument in the first place stugot!
Someone claimed, that Betfair never advertised the 20% better claim.

Agree completely, I don't bet in the lower price range so my problem is only with getting matched, I do like the prices I could get if only ....

Cheers

Stugs, well, I am a Gemini hee hee! but seriously, the difference is the lowest price stipulation that's what makes the product.

If you just take BFSP on its own, I stand by my statement talking about AVERAGES BF-V- BOB/ Best Tote (lower end)

does it? they can stipulate all they want, i simply go by my experience in using the product, beats hands down anything else I have encountered.

& I hate to bring this old chestnut up but seriously how long does one get 'best tote/sp, best whatever' once ones account is regularly getting topped up with the bookies money?

whats the use of these betting products when they only let you on for a pittance or eventually show you the door?

its all a gimmick imho

well, ok you have a valid point there but that is a different argument isn't it? as far as my betting is concerned my maximum bet is $100 usually and only very occasionally $200 so I don't think they'd be looking too closely at me, mind you I do have a lot of bets.

dont think it is a different argument as it not 'best of whatever' if they wont let you on

to use your own words from recent thread - 'smoke & mirrors' - nothing new here.

party if you insist on continually contradicting yourself it becomes difficult to enter any sensible and rational discussion.

Syallbus, sorry if you missed the twist, my original post was a comparison overall of BFSP (on its own) v BOB or best tote as available at the lower end of the market, namely opening favs. my research shows very little difference and in fact a slight advantage best tote after commissions are taken into account. This contradicts claims that BF has 20% better odds, now it might have 20% better odds v individual totes when you take ALL results into consideration but not when you compare it to the BOB or Best tote (as available) especially at the lower end.

Now, when it comes to betting @ BF SP but stipulating a minimum price that you will accept, that's a different story. e.g. say you want $100 on a nag but your minimum price you state at say $3, ok you might get more than that but if the max available is $2.90c, then its a no bet and you get your money back, (just explaining that for those that don't know it's available) as you can place your bet b4 racing and know that you will either be on at value or get your money back I consider that an excellent product.

So sorry, I don't think I'm contradicting myself there??

And Stugs, again I don't agree, WHEN they close your account then best tote is not available at that point, in the meantime it is available, so I say its a different argument ;still.

Interesting argument fellas.

It is horses for courses, it all depends on the price range and the type of odds you're backing.
Party is correct about BFSP in many cases, as many of you may be aware, many bookies are laying off on Betfair on the first two favourites at the last minute distorting what would have been a very nice SP price.
I met one bookie two weeks ago who does just that.
What happens is he lays off a lot of money right down to below bookie ring prices, because his average price is higher.
That's why we see many odd prices below bookie SP.

However with minimum price stipulations, Betfair is a fantastic revolution in my opinion.
It doesn't look quite so fantastic in the raw figures because of the above paragraph, nor does the questionable 20% bear much reality because of liquidity at the longer end.

However on firmers in the ring on track here's a quick workout....

Bookie SP -55.65 units or -11.57%
NSWTAB +15.30 units or +3.18%
UNiTAB +21.70 units or +4.51%
STAB +37.20 units or +7.73%
Best Tote +64.70 units or +13.45%
Top Fluctuation +100.75 units or +20.95%
Betfair SP +123.92 units or +25.76%

BFSP beats top fluctuation and even more so with a minimum price stipulation, you can get on up to the jump (unlike Top Fluc) and they won't limit your account to pennies.

In effect one is able to get on Top Fluctuation up to the jump (hypothetically).
Where else in the racing world is this allowed ;)

nice stuff Chrome, is that ALL firmers all prices or opening favs only?

also am I correct that although the comparison is intertesting you couldn't actually back @ Top Fluc because in most cases the bet has to be on 40 minutes b4 the race, and of course you would only know what you were backing a few minutes b4 the off?

That's all firmers, all prices.

That's my point Party, you couldn't actually bet Top Fluctuation with the bookie because they cut you off if you win, and close Top Fluctuation well before betting really begins.
But taking BFSP with a price stipulation is the equivalent, and you can get on up to the jump.

Completely incorrect.

This is where it started..........partypooper
Member Join Date: Jan 1970
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 2,400

is Betfair a Myth?(without prejudice)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WITHOUT PREJUDICE


I've suspected the worst for a while, but now I'm convinced its a case of "Smoke and Mirrors"

here is the comparison for the last 13 days from my returns from a place system that I've run for 5 years +

Its the best tote that I ACTUALLY got, -V- the best price that I COULD HAVE GOT from BF (not accounting for commission)

Best Tote.....................................BFAIR
19.54 ...................... 18.25
18.6 ...................... 18.15
12.14 ...................... 12.04
9.1......................... 8.6
19.91 ...................... 19.26
12.6....................... 12.01
22.30..................... . 21.42
21.9....................... 22.04
8 ......................... 8.47
17.4 ....................... 17.9
19.10 ........................ 18.78
19......................... 19.81
19.30........................ 17.88

218.89 ...................... 214.61


just wanna warn fellow punters for most of us its NOT what its cracked up to be, when it comes to the actual horses that you back you'd be far better off getting BOB/Best Tote/sp,/ Best tote/ Country Best in that order, (all in my substantiated opinion.

12 replies and not one mention from anyone that BF "never advertised the 20% better claim."

OK
I'm sorry, must have been imagining things I suppose.
Mea culpa and all that.

Cheers

PS,
I knew I've seen somet along the 20% line, fancy that!
------------------------------------------------------
from party's Snoke&mirrors post

18th September 2010, 01:06 AM
partypooper

LIKE WHERE IS THE 20% Better odds?????????

===============================================
this was disputed by Mark and others claiming all sort of things like "it only refers to win bets etc.

---------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by lomaca
This ad from elsewhere, not from their site.

By betting against other punters, you invariably get the best odds. This includes an average of 20% better odds on win & place markets than the TAB on horseracing.
--------------------------------------
Reply by Mark"

"Shows you how much of their advertising I take notice of."
--------------------------------------------------------------------

You seem to be taking a lot of notice of SOME things though!

Cheers

Only the personal digs you continue to use for some unknown reason.

Gee, hey guys cool it hey? I do seem to recall someone saying : "where did BF advertise 20% better odds".......... but I've forgot who or where but , not really a big deal anyway ey?

personal digs?

You are dreaming, but never mind.
If you read my reply to stugots, it was entirely relevant, and had nothing to do with you, I never talked to you don't know you and don't wish to either.

And after this, this thread will probably be removed anyway.

In yesterday's Telegraph (page 117) there was an advertisement from Betfair claiming "at Betfair, we want you to win more. Which is why we give you 20% better odds than the TAB and much better odds than the bookies".

However, Betfair qualifies this by saying "20% better odds figure based on direct comparison of winning between Betfair's Weighted Average Price (less 5% commission) against the price available from the totaliser based in the same state of the race meeting, across all thoroughbred winners on mainland metropolitan tracks from 1 May 2010 - 31 August 2010."

oh dear

lead
horse
water

so so sad