Not sure if this is old news to everyone but Betfair is now taking bets on the major metro meetings in Australia. You can even operate your account in Aussie dollars so there are no currency conversion issues to worry about.

I had a bit of a play on a couple of races last night - in one of them the worst I could have done was a 5% profit (backing a horse and then laying it back a minute later) - as it turned out I made 10% profit with practically no risk at all.

There is a link on the tipping competition website http://www.tlcbc.com.au/tipping.htm to a page I am doing which will have tips on using Betfair.



_________________
"Computers can do that????" - Homer Simpson

[ This Message was edited by: becareful on 2003-02-21 17:39 ]

It's a revolution alright, becareful.
Interesting to know how its going to develop, wrt both attempted Goverment intervention and the behaviour of the exchange as more and more amateur bookies start getting in on the action.
Very interesting indeed.

Very interesting to see how this all pans out.
TwoFlys has also emerged as a lesser contender and I think that Betfair has a much better reputation.
Also anyone using twoflys, be very sure you read the fine print about money withdrawal and turnover of deposits etc.
It is important to know exactly what you' re allowed and not allowed to do.

The downside of these organisations is that a trainer, jockey, stablehand, owner etc - can invoke the services of a friend or relative to substantially "lay" a runner, which they know it has no chance of winning or is in poor condition etc.

The extremely positive upside however, is the scenario that becareful has just described, where you bet a selection either on betfair or IAS and lay it back giving you absolutley no risk.
These indeed may be more common than not and an opportunity to make some serious money, similar to takeover bids on the stockmarket when he stock trades at below the takeover bid for one reason or another.



[ This Message was edited by: Chrome Prince on 2003-02-21 18:34 ]

To anyone who has used Betfair.
Is the 5% commission based on your profit or the amount of return?

eg. If you bet $10 on a $5 runner the return is $50. Is the 5% commission on the $50 return or the $40 profit.

The Betfair help talks about returns and profits and commisions on winnings.

Thanks.

Debug,

The commission (5% initially but you can qualify for lower rates based on your weekly turnover) is charged on your NET PROFIT for each race only. So if you won $40 on one runner but lost $10 on another IN THE SAME RACE (ie. you backed 2 at $10/each) then you pay 5% of your $30 net profit. On that race last night where I bet on a runner and then layed it off I only paid the commission on the profit I made (so for every $10 I originally bet I made a $1 profit so ended up with $0.95 after comission).

Becareful
I haven't looked at the Betfair site yet, but from what you are saying we can now lay horses as well as back them, is this right??, if so....you ****** beauty.. Did you back something and then lay it shorter?, good for you if you did !!

:grin: :grin: :grin:

Mark,

Yes I backed a horse and then layed it back at a shorter price. I did it again this morning on Race 2 Randwick - Ears Ronny backed at $3.55 and layed at $3.40, also Hollow backed at $6 and layed at $5. Also layed a runner on Betfair and backed it on IAS for guaranteed profit (only problem here is you pay more commission than if you can back and lay both bets on Betfair).

Nothing like the feeling of winning regardless of which runner is first over the line :smile: Now I know how you feel with your system!

becareful,
Thanks for that info.

I guess the trick with betting and laying off is to know which runners are going to drop in price.

I have been trying dutching with Betfair prices. It has a greater potetial and opens up more options than using the starting price odds of TAB's.

Just thought I'd take a look at Betfair re English football. Current odds for West Ham v West Brom are quite incredible. WBA $2.80, WH $2.80 & Draw $3.45. for those who don't know their % I suggest you learn them quickly. This event is currently at 100.4%, whereas the TABs and other betting outlets you could probably juggle & get on at 110%. This is amazing & how long before the Govt tries to ban it or puts their own tax on it.

Hi all,

Can someone explain how laying works (no birds and bees lessons please)? If you back a horse for say $100 at 5/1 and it wins, you win $600 (including stake). How is the risk offset by laying it at 4/1? I guess I just don't understand the concept of laying (no birds and bees lessons please) and need it explained in layman's terms, so to speak.

By the way, I noticed Northerly was available to back at $2.04 on Betfair. Even with the 5% commission that equates to $1.94, much better than the $1.80 official top fluc. Bookies be warned and TABs don't stand a chance.

Cheers

Reinster,

When you "lay" the horse you are accepting someone else's bet at the given odds (so if it loses you keep their money - if it wins you have to pay them out at the specified odds). Using your example lets say you put $100 on a horse at $6.00 (5/1) - as you say if it wins you will collect $600 for a profit of $500 - but if it loses you lose your $100. If the odds then shorten in to $5.00 (4/1) you could lay it at that price and accept $120 in bets - if the horse wins you have to pay out $120 x $5 = $600 so you have broken even - if it loses then you have made $20 (the $120 you accepted less the $100 you bet).

Of course you can also lay it for slightly less - if you accept $117 at $5.00 then if it loses you make $17 and if it wins you make $15 (as you only have to pay out $585 but you have won $600). This is what I was doing on Saturday and generally making 5%-15% profit whichever horse won.

If you place both bets on Betfair then you only pay the commission on your profit - in the above example you would pay the 5% on the $15 or $17 profit, not on the $117 or $500 amounts.

When I get a chance (probably tomorrow or Wednesday) I will put some more details on this topic up on my website, including examples of the bets I placed on the weekend.
_________________
"Computers can do that????" - Homer Simpson


[ This Message was edited by: becareful on 2003-02-24 10:29 ]

Another good thing about Betfair is it gives new life to all those old systems that worked well for a few weeks and then fell in a bottomless pit! Any system that shows a huge loss could suddenly become a goldmine as you can "lay" the system selections and as long as they lose you will win :smile:

Luckly Lil's "Lay of the Day" tip could be of much greater interest to me now!

Anyone got any systems out there making a 50% loss or more (particularly those that select shorter priced horses that lose)?

_________________
"Computers can do that????" - Homer Simpson

[ This Message was edited by: becareful on 2003-02-24 10:27 ]

Great explanation BC, thanks. Right, so the Betfair website is set out with a line of prices, eg. (and I hope this formats okay).

Back Back Back Lay Lay Lay.

$4 $5 $6 $7 $8 $9.

$245 $576 $388 $122 $23 $15.

I back the horse at $6 and I want to have $100 on it but does that mean I can't because there's only $388 in the pool?

Similarly if I want to lay the horse at $7 does it mean I can only lay it for $122 divided by $7 (about $17) because if it wins, I have to pay out $122, or do I lay it for the full $122 knowing if the horse wins, I have to pay $122 x $7?

Reenster,

The dollar figures shown below the prices are the amount that is currently on offer (or being requested) at the given price. In the example you gave the $388 @ $6 means that someone is willing to accept up to $388 at that $6.00 price so you can bet up to that amount (so the figure given is the amount you can bet - not how much will be won). The good thing about Betfair is you can place a bet for a lesser or greater amount than what is on offer (I think Twoflys limits you to accepting specific bets - eg. if someone offers $50 on TwoFlys you either bet the full $50 or nothing - you cant take just $10 of it - I could be wrong however as I have not actually used TwoFlys). If you bet less than the amount on offer then your bet is "fully matched" and the amount on offer is decreased by that amount. If you want to bet more then the system will match what is available and then place an "order" for the remainder.

In your example if you bet $100 @ 6.00 then you would get your bet and the system would update to show $288 still available at $6.00. If you bet $500 @ $6.00 then the system would match the $388 currently available and the remining $112 would appear on the "lay" side at $6.00 showing that you are willing to accept up to $112 in bets at that $6.00 price.

The Lay side of things works the same way - the dollar value is the amount that people are wanting to bet at the specified price and you can match some, all or more than the specified amount (so to answer your question if you accepted the $122 at $7 lay then you would be liable to pay $122 x $7 if the horse won). If you are willing to accept more than the $122 again you can enter that and the system will match the $122 amount and display the remainder on the "bet" side showing that you are willing to take bets at the $7 price.

It can be a bit confusing at first so I suggest you start with a few small bets to get the hang of it. I made one mistake when I started and accidentally "layed" a selection at $7 instead of backing it - fortuately I was able to back it at the same price so I didn't lose any money. Once you get the hang of it though it is quite easy.

The arb. win either way method is great if you can manage it but you still have to guess which way a horses odds are going to go before your initial move. Can get an idea from IAS odds for eg. but if things don't go as expected you may be forced to close out the "trade" with a potential loss on one side. Also requires a large account dt marginal, albeit certain return if things do pan out.
The big attraction for most I think is just the ability to lay horses, this being obviously a heck of a lot easier than backing them.
As backing all favourites at SP gives an 18% lot, and as bookies have long proven, there is a fair bit going for laying favs.
The interesting thing is how far the stampede to the sell side is going to erode this losing margin creating other opportunities. It is hard to predict, for my dull mind anyway, how such a seismic shift in betting arrangements is going to eventually impact on markets and betting behaviour overall.


[ This Message was edited by: Tony on 2003-02-25 12:40 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Tony on 2003-02-25 12:43 ]

As much as I like the idea of BETFAIR, isn’t our money going oversees?

Money traded on BETFAIR is money (percentage) not being fed back into the racing, pacing & chasing industry.

In the long run won't BETFAIR have a detrimental effect on the state of racing in Australia?

Very good point Rogan Josh!

All money that is won or lost or traded on Betfair does nothing to support racing in Australia as far as I am aware.

It's really the regulation of the TAB's and bookies which is at fault here. If the market percentages weren't so excessive (greedy) then many punters would not flock to more viable markets so readily.

TABCORP et al - pull your socks up!

Rogan Josh,

You sound like an advertisement on Sky :smile:

Seriously though the problem, as Chrome Prince points out, is that the TAB take is so high that it makes it quite hard to make a long term profit betting on the TAB (and the bookies aren't much better - in fact sometimes they take an even higher %). Also despite what the ads on Sky imply the TAB take is not all going to support the industry! For every dollar you bet on the TAB between 15 and 20 cents is retained - that is then split into 3 roughly equal portions. One third goes to government in tax, one third to TAB and the last third to the "industry". My desire to support the industry is outweighed by my desire not to pay any more tax than I have to!

As to the overseas thing if the Australian government hadn't been so stupid as to completly stop all development of Australian based internet gambling a few years ago it is quite likely that we would have had several Australian based competitors to Betfair by now.

Of course if you can make a profit on Betfair then a reasonable portion of that money you are winning is probably coming from punters in other countries - so you are helping the trade deficit :smile:

As much as I like to support Australian industries, etc, I am afraid I have to look after my money first - if I can make a lot more money by betting with Betfair then I am going to go with that. When I make my first million I will donate 10% to the "industry"!

_________________
"Computers can do that????" - Homer Simpson

[ This Message was edited by: becareful on 2003-02-25 11:18 ]

Tony,

There were several situations on the weekend when it was extremely obvious which way the odds would move. For example that $6 one I mentioned - when I backed it at $6 it was showing around $3 on all TABs and on IAS. Although it did drift out on the TAB there was no way it was ever going to drift to $6 so the Betfair price inevitably came down and I had no trouble laying it at $5 (I was being super-cautious, if I had waited until just prior to the jump I could have layed it at $4.50 or so). However I agree that you would probably not be able to make enough doing this alone as the margins are fairly slim (although you may if they start covering more meetings and as the turnover increases) - but if you are going to be online placing your normal bets anyway then it is just icing on the cake.

The bigger opportunites are probably in laying certain horses and in taking the far better than TAB/Bookie odds on others. For example you could easily get around the $2.00 mark for Northerly on Saturday which is way better than the TAB and Top Fluct. prices.

Becareful
A couple of questions. Have you tried to withdraw any of your winnings, & what do they mean by "your total withdrawal on each registered card must be equal to or greater than your total deposits before you can withdraw additional winnings"? Does this mean if you deposit $1000, that you cannot withdraw any $ until your a/c hits at least $2000, or you must withdraw at least $1000, or to make a withdrawal you must empty your a/c & make another deposit before betting again?
I used to work in a govt dept & know that they have to cover themselves by quoting gobbledegook, it just seems a little ambiguous to me.
Thanks
Mark

Mark,

No I haven't made a withdrawal yet - maybe after this weekend :smile:

The way I interpreted that statement is that if you have deposited $1000 on your VISA card then any withdrawals up to the first $1000 will be paid back to your VISA card before they will send you cheque/direct deposit - this is a common requirement (as it reduces the commission they have to pay the credit card company). So if you withdrew $500 that would all go back to your VISA card, if you then wanted to withdraw another $700 then the first $500 would go back to the credit card (so that the $1000 deposit has been completely "refunded") and the remaining $200 would be sent by cheque/direct deposit.

Interesting comment becareful, coming from someone with a link to Betfair on his website :wink:

I’ve actually been avoiding Sky of late, what with all that V Bet crap.

Mark,
had the same bit of confusion so I emailed them, the response was clear.....

my question...........

"Hello,
about withdrawing funds. If I deposit via Bank Transfer from my bank account
to yours for say $1000 AUD. If in 1 month my account is say $5000 AUD can
I organise the withdrawal and transfer back to my bank account of the whole
$5000?
Your explanation of withdrawal is too brief for an important transaction."


and the response............


"Thank you for your e-mail

You are totally correct in the presumption that if you deposited $1000 AUD you can withdraw $5000 AUD. There is no limit on how much you want to deposit and withdrawal with Bank Transfers. Problems would only occur if you use a VISA or Mastercard to make withdrawals as they do not allow you to withdraw more than you deposit.

If you need a further explanation please do not hesitate to contact us.

Kind regards,

Taf Pilgrim

Betfair Helpdesk
info@betfair.com"

Thanks guys. One more question, what's the timeframe between depositing & receiving notice that your a/c is up & running?. Sorry 2 questions. If the back column shows $3 & the lay column shows $3.50, & you choose to lay, who is getting the $3.50?

Mark,

I deposited by Credit Card and the account was open instantly. Not sure about other deposit methods.

If the lay column showed $3.50 and you chose to accept that then you are giving the other person those odds and accepting their money - eg. if you accepted $100 at $3.50 then you get $100 (less the relevant commission) if the horse loses but you have to pay them $250 if the horse wins (this will show as your liability).

Hi, becareful.
I'm not too familiar with Betting Exchanges, so could you be kind enough to answer my questions?

From reading your postings I am under the impression that if someone backs a horse at a certain price and then lays it at 6% below the "backing" price, then you are guaranteed a 1% profit after Betfair takes their 5%? If so, should this be a guideline for those of us with no Betting Exchange knowledge?

One can currently back New Zealand to win the Cricket World Cup on Betfair at $13 while on Twoflys they are at $8.10. I assume N.Z could be backed to win on Betfair and then laid on Twoflys (even at $12)for a guaranteed profit?

Thanks.
Michael

Yes, I understand that but if you want to back the same horse, if on the back side it's showing $3.00, how do you get the $3.50, obviously somebody is getting it. Apart from that I'm back in the bookie business from Saturday. Did you notice if they listed Brisbane or Adelaide races last week?

:smile:

Mark,

If the highest price showing on the bet side is $3.00 then you can request a higher value by clicking on the bet side and entering the price and volume you want. Eg If you wanted to try to get say $3.40 for $100 then you would enter those values - your bet would appear as an unmatched bet on the Lay side of the screen (indicating you want someone to lay the horse at $3.40 to match your bet).

They only covered Sydney and Melbourne last Saturday so dont know when or if they will be expanding to the other states.


MichaelG,

If you are backing and laying both bets on Betfair then the commission is only charged on your profit - so if you back for a given price and lay it at even 1% less you will make a small profit. If you are backing with another bookie/exchange and laying on Betfair (or vice-versa) then you will need at least a 5% difference to make a profit. In your example yes you could make a profit by backing on Betfair and laying on Twoflys (provided you can get both bets on before the prices change - this is your only risk).

As an example last night I was checking some tennis prices and happened to notice that one market was only 99.6% with around $500 available to back on one player and several thousand on the other. In one minute with no risk I had made around $10 regardless of which player won the match.

Confused me too, Mark, it seems a-about the way they put the odds up. Must be a pommie thing, like Ritchie saying it's 222/2 at Lord's.
Reiterating becareful, there is no 3.50 on offer in your example, that is just the current low price a bettor is prepared to accept and 3.00 is the highest price a layer is prepared to lay.
There is a standoff till one meets the other at one end or somewhere in-between.
Once you get on and start pressing the buttons you soon get their drift.

Becareful
Thanks mate, a gentleman as always.

Ah! I see the light becareful :wink:

Betfair are running a promotion that whoever can get the most Aussie referals to Betfair win a prize of AUS$1300, so by joining up thru a link from a particular website it puts that website in the running for the prize. :cool:

Paddy,

Yes I do get a commission if people join betfair through my website - but I don't think I would ever be in the running for the prize you mention - my website isn't that popular! Given the amount of time I have put into running the tipping competition with no compensation I didn't think it was unreasonable to try to get a little bit back through referrals - I doubt whether it will ever amount to more than a few dollars per hour for the time I have spent :smile:

I only put banners on my website if it is a product I use myself and think is worth recommending to others - having used Betfair I believe that it offers a huge advantage to punters over the traditional TAB and Bookie offerings we currently have here - I would say at least 50% of my Saturday turnover will be through them from now on with the TAB/IAS used for the meetings they don't cover or when the price is better.

becareful,

You sound like an advertisement on BETFAIR :smile:

Becareful
If you don't mind me asking, which credit card did you use to open your a/c. I tried with a Citibank Visa, it was declined. When I rang the bank they said that they were not allowed to trasfer funds to merchants that appear to be pornographic or gambling sites. Sounds like the govt is wielding the big stick already. After all it is my money!

Mark,

It was an ANZ Visa card. Actually ANZ called me about 15 minutes after I put the transaction through to confirm that I had authorised it but it was approved with no problems.

It seems very "big brotherish" for the bank to tell you who you can and cannot do business with! Fair enough to give people the option to block their card being used for gambling transactions if they want to protect themselves but to apply a ban to all cardholders without exception seems ridiculous.

I rang Betfair just now, they suggested Electronic Bank Transfer & said that should be in my a/c within 24 hours. Really pushing it to be ready for Saturday.

Mark,

Betfair is covering Eagle Farm tomorrow as well as Caulfield and Rosehill. I suspect Adelaide may not be too far away! They also covered Mooney Valley tonight but given the general quality of the fields I gave that a miss! Good luck if you have a go at being the bookie for a change!


Paddy,
Just checked that $1300 prize you mentioned and I am not eligible to win it - that only applies if you personally refer people via email not if you have an advertisement on your website.

Thanks for the update becareful. I think you might be referring to the 'refer a friend' program.

But hey, go for it :wink: let's hope we can help build up on those $20 introductory kickbacks. Better in your pocket than theirs.

Betfair is the greatest thing to happen to Australian punters in the last millenium.

Why?

Because I have just had a large number of bets that I simply cannot lose on.

I have laid some favourites at short prices and backed them for subsanially longer prices.

Get in while you can because the odds will surely come into line as more people get wind of this and start using the service regularly.

When could you ever have a bet and be assured of making money win lose or draw!!!

:smile:

Alas, my a/c was not up & running for today. I have been a regular racegoer for around 25 years (showing my age there) but I fear I may have been to my last race meeting. I sat in front of the computer today, back & forth between IAS & Betfair, recording dummy bets, (laying of course)& have never seen better value. You could have easily layed Northerly today at $1.25 & within 5 minutes freely backed it back at $1.33, that sort of value is too good to pass up. About 20 years ago I read an article in Racetrack Magazine about racing in the future. It stated that not only would there be night racing, but, there would be nobody at the track, as all the punters would be at their personal computers betting between each other. At the time I scoffed at the thought of not being at the track, however the future is now here. My real concern now is what measures our mealy mouthed politicians will take to ruin this betting revolution.
:???: