DONCASTER HANDICAP 1600M - Randwick Sat 19th April

1 DEFIER Guy Walter 58
2 LONHRO John Hawkes 57.5
3 SHOGUN LODGE Bob Thomsen 57
4 EXCELLERATOR Gai Waterhouse 55.5
5 FIELDS OF OMAGH Tony McEvoy 55
6 DASH FOR CASH Rick Hore-Lacy 54.5
7 CRAWL John Hawkes 54
8 ROYAL CODE David Hall 54
9 HOEBERG (NZ) David Payne 53.5
10 LORD ESSEX John Hawkes 53.5
11 PLATINUM SCISSORS Gai Waterhouse 53.5
12 SCENIC PEAK Danny J Bougoure 53.5
13 HA HA Gai Waterhouse 53
14 UMRUM Leon Macdonald 53
15 GORDO John Hawkes 52.5
16 KINGSGATE Gai Waterhouse 52.5
17 CARAEL BOY Bob Milligan 51.5
18 EMISSION Cliff Brown 51.5
19 THIS MANSHOOD Tim Martin 51.5
20 ZVEZDA (NZ) Kay Lane 51.5
21 BOREALE John Hawkes 51
22 CORPORATE BRUCE H S Mc Laren 51
23 MAKYBE DIVA (GB) David Hall 51
24 MISS ZOE Les Bridge 51
25 DESERT SKY Mathew Ellerton 50.5
26 EVANDER John Hawkes 50.5
27 MANNER HILL Gai Waterhouse 50.5
28 MR. LOFTY (NZ) David Hall 50.5
29 SNOWLAND Gai Waterhouse 50.5
30 BENARRIVO (NZ) Bart Cummings 50
31 CHAIRMAN'S CHOICE Ray Naylor 50
32 COGNAC TRADER Bart Cummings 50
33 GAMESMAN Gai Waterhouse 50
34 GRAND ARMEE Gai Waterhouse 50
35 GRAND CITY Gai Waterhouse 50
36 HOSANNAH John Hawkes 50
37 LA BELLA DAME Mick Price 50
38 LAZZAZ (NZ) John O'Shea 50
39 LITTLEWOOD LANE Geni Gillis 50
40 LOVELY JUBLY Jason Deamer 50
41 ON A HIGH John O'Shea 50
42 SALGADO John Hawkes 50
43 STATESMANSHIP (NZ) Gai Waterhouse 50
44 SWISS ECHO Gai Waterhouse 50
45 THORN PARK Bob Thomsen 50
46 TO BE FAIR Graeme Rogerson 50
47 GENTLE GENIUS Tony Wildman 49.5
48 PURPLE GROOVE (NZ) Tony Noonan 49.5
49 BIN DANCIN (NZ) Kathy Hughes 49
50 CLANGALANG Gerald Ryan 49
51 GWEN'S RULES (NZ) Frank Ritchie 49
52 MOON DRAGON Guy Walter 49
53 NATURAL BLITZ Doug Harrison 49
54 AL MEGDAM Gai Waterhouse 48.5
55 BRECON ROSE (NZ) Gai Waterhouse 48.5
56 BRIEF EMBRACE Peter G Moody 48.5
57 CHARLIE BUB (NZ) Gary Portelli 48.5
58 CIVICS Bradley Marzato 48.5
59 GRAND JUROR Gary Portelli 48.5
60 LADY CAY Grahame Begg 48.5
61 SHOVOFF Clarry Conners 48.5
62 STANFORD Gai Waterhouse 48.5
63 STELLA REGALE John Morish 48.5
64 TAKAS John Hawkes 48.5
65 SHOWER OF ROSES (NZ) Gai Waterhouse 47.5
66 CURVY GIRL (NZ) Graeme Rogerson 47
67 DUBAI ICE Tony McEvoy 47

Prices at: 07:17:35, 13 Apr 2003 NSWTAB

No. Selection Win Place
219 Lonhro $3.50 $1.60
153 Defier $4.75 $1.90
306 Thorn Park $6.50 $2.35
182 Gordo $9.00 $3.00
167 Excellerator $13.00 $4.00
183 Grand Armee $13.00 $4.00
151 Dash for Cash $15.00 $4.50
283 Shogun Lodge $15.00 $4.50
118 Boreale $21.00 $6.00
235 Miss Zoe $21.00 $6.00
280 Scenic Peak $21.00 $6.00
323 This Manshood $21.00 $6.00
220 Lord Essex $26.00 $7.25
223 Lovely Jubly $26.00 $7.25
273 Royal Code $26.00 $7.25
130 Carael Boy $34.00 $9.25
147 Crawl $34.00 $9.25
188 Ha Ha $34.00 $9.25
193 Hoeberg $34.00 $9.25
195 Hosannah $34.00 $9.25
322 Shower of Roses $34.00 $9.25
211 Kingsgate $41.00 $11.00
114 Benarrivo $51.00 $13.50
236 Moon Dragon $51.00 $13.50
137 Chairman's Choice $67.00 $17.50
138 Charlie Bub $67.00 $17.50
177 Gentle Genius $67.00 $17.50
250 On a High $67.00 $17.50
258 Platinum Scissors $67.00 $17.50
264 Purple Groove $67.00 $17.50
278 Salgado $67.00 $17.50
142 Clangalang $101.00 $26.00
143 Cognac Trader $101.00 $26.00
156 Desert Sky $101.00 $26.00
163 Emission $101.00 $26.00
165 Evander $101.00 $26.00
245 Natural Blitz $101.00 $26.00
101 Al Megdam $126.00 $32.25
145 Corporate Bruce $126.00 $32.25
214 La Bella Dame $126.00 $32.25
290 Snowland $126.00 $32.25
321 Zvezda $126.00 $32.25
116 Bin Dancin $151.00 $38.50
122 Brief Embrace $151.00 $38.50
150 Curvy Girl $151.00 $38.50
184 Grand City $151.00 $38.50
186 Gwen's Rules $151.00 $38.50
216 Lazzaz $151.00 $38.50
229 Makybe Diva $151.00 $38.50
230 Manner Hill $151.00 $38.50
239 Mr. Lofty $151.00 $38.50
292 Stanford $151.00 $38.50
293 Statesmanship $151.00 $38.50
301 Takas $151.00 $38.50
312 Umrum $151.00 $38.50
121 Brecon Rose $156.00 $39.75
141 Civics $201.00 $51.00
160 Dubai Ice $201.00 $51.00
215 Lady Cay $201.00 $51.00
218 Littlewood Lane $201.00 $51.00
176 Gamesman $251.00 $63.50
185 Grand Juror $251.00 $63.50
285 Shovoff $251.00 $63.50
294 Stella Regale $251.00 $63.50
308 To Be Fair $251.00 $63.50

Prices at: 11:08:20, 14 Apr 2003 NSWTAB

No. Selection Win Place
219 Lonhro $3.50 $1.60
153 Defier $4.75 $1.90
306 Thorn Park $6.50 $2.35
182 Gordo $9.00 $3.00
167 Excellerator $13.00 $4.00
183 Grand Armee $13.00 $4.00
151 Dash for Cash $15.00 $4.50
283 Shogun Lodge $15.00 $4.50
235 Miss Zoe $21.00 $6.00
223 Lovely Jubly $26.00 $7.25
280 Scenic Peak $26.00 $7.25
118 Boreale $34.00 $9.25
130 Carael Boy $34.00 $9.25
147 Crawl $34.00 $9.25
220 Lord Essex $34.00 $9.25
188 Ha Ha $51.00 $13.50
195 Hosannah $51.00 $13.50
236 Moon Dragon $51.00 $13.50
264 Purple Groove $51.00 $13.50
273 Royal Code $51.00 $13.50
177 Gentle Genius $67.00 $17.50
211 Kingsgate $67.00 $17.50
216 Lazzaz $67.00 $17.50
250 On a High $67.00 $17.50
137 Chairman's Choice $101.00 $26.00
138 Charlie Bub $101.00 $26.00
156 Desert Sky $101.00 $26.00
163 Emission $101.00 $26.00
165 Evander $101.00 $26.00
258 Platinum Scissors $101.00 $26.00
322 Shower of Roses $101.00 $26.00
323 This Manshood $101.00 $26.00
114 Benarrivo $126.00 $32.25
143 Cognac Trader $126.00 $32.25
145 Corporate Bruce $126.00 $32.25
278 Salgado $126.00 $32.25
101 Al Megdam $151.00 $38.50
116 Bin Dancin $151.00 $38.50
121 Brecon Rose $151.00 $38.50
122 Brief Embrace $151.00 $38.50
142 Clangalang $151.00 $38.50
184 Grand City $151.00 $38.50
186 Gwen's Rules $151.00 $38.50
214 La Bella Dame $151.00 $38.50
229 Makybe Diva $151.00 $38.50
230 Manner Hill $151.00 $38.50
239 Mr. Lofty $151.00 $38.50
245 Natural Blitz $151.00 $38.50
290 Snowland $151.00 $38.50
292 Stanford $151.00 $38.50
293 Statesmanship $151.00 $38.50
301 Takas $151.00 $38.50
312 Umrum $151.00 $38.50
321 Zvezda $151.00 $38.50
141 Civics $201.00 $51.00
150 Curvy Girl $201.00 $51.00
160 Dubai Ice $201.00 $51.00
215 Lady Cay $201.00 $51.00
218 Littlewood Lane $201.00 $51.00
176 Gamesman $251.00 $63.50
185 Grand Juror $251.00 $63.50
285 Shovoff $251.00 $63.50
294 Stella Regale $251.00 $63.50
308 To Be Fair $251.00 $63.50
193 Hoeberg Suspended Suspended

What a field!

There are some horses a huge overs which are capable of causing a boilover, but at this stage I'll be sticking with Lonhro.

Bin Dancing should be 500/1!
Lovely Jubly should be 50/1.


[ This Message was edited by: Chrome Prince on 2003-04-14 15:19 ]

Early thoughts -

Looking at those currently at $34 or under, the following appear to me as good value


Gordo $9.00 $3.00
Excellerator $13.00 $4.00
Shogun Lodge $15.00 $4.50
Miss Zoe $21.00 $6.00
Crawl $34.00 $9.25


A quick look at some of those above $34, like the odds on offer for-

Royal Code $51.00 $13.50 & This Manshood $101.00 $26.0

Just read that Royal Code is an unlikely starter, may run in All-Aged Stakes the following week.

This is a two horse race.It is irrevelant where they draw at the barrier.Given there are a couple of up and comers in the race,notably Thorn Park and Gordo,who in my humble opinion will go on to better things,I really don't think anything else is capable of beating Lohnro or Defier.Luck in running and the best ride on the day will decide the outcome.The others will be going around for the minor prizemoney.Took 7/1 Lohnro some time back,so my pocket goes with him,and I also think he is a superstar in the making.However,Defier has had the wood on him three times out of four,and they both have a brilliant turn of foot,and are capable of running some incredibly fast final sectionals,so who knows!!Bring it on,I can't wait!!

No. Horse Trainer Jockey Barrier Weight
1 DEFIER Guy Walter C Munce 58
2 LONHRO John Hawkes D Beadman 57.5
3 SHOGUN LODGE Bob Thomsen H Bowman 57
4 EXCELLERATOR Gai Waterhouse J Cassidy 55.5
5 DASH FOR CASH Rick Hore-Lacy D Nikolic 54.5
6 CRAWL John Hawkes R M Quinn 54
7 SCENIC PEAK Danny J Bougoure G Childs 53.5
8 GORDO John Hawkes C Brown 52.5
9 CARAEL BOY Bob Milligan S Seamer 51.5
10 GRAND ARMEE Gai Waterhouse D Beasley 51.5 1.5
11 BOREALE John Hawkes D Gauci 51
12 CORPORATE BRUCE Hec McLaren 51
13 MISS ZOE Les Bridge C Carmody 51
14 CHAIRMAN'S CHOICE Ray Naylor R McLeod 50
15 COGNAC TRADER Bart Cummings D McLellan 50
16 THORN PARK Bob Thomsen G Boss 50
17 GENTLE GENIUS Tony Wildman T Jones 49.5
18 PURPLE GROOVE (NZ) Tony Noonan K McEvoy 49.5

Where's the speed?

Doesn't seem to be any noted frontrunners to generate the pace? Expect Carael Boy, Dash For Cash, Grand Armee, Scenic Peak to be in the first few. All of these are drawn midfield and may go forward. I would expect Beadman to try to be reasonbly close on Lonhro from gate 6, like last time, so heaven help the rest of them if they stand him up a start.

I'm not really interested in races like this. I agree with what was in Punt to Win today. The winners are the bookies, TABs, owners, trainers and jockeys of the horses that get some of the prizemoney. The losers are the punters. The handicapper has evened up the field. There are at least 10 serious winning chances - all will probably be well under their true winning odds. Bad luck is often the winner of this race.

Prices at: 15:32:57, 15 Apr 2003 NSWTAB

No. Selection Win Place
002 Lonhro $3.00 $1.50
001 Defier $5.00 $2.00
016 Thorn Park $8.00 $2.75
004 Excellerator $11.00 $3.50
005 Dash for Cash $11.00 $3.50
008 Gordo $11.00 $3.50
010 Grand Armee $13.00 $4.00
003 Shogun Lodge $15.00 $4.50
013 Miss Zoe $21.00 $6.00
007 Scenic Peak $26.00 $7.25
006 Crawl $41.00 $11.00
009 Carael Boy $41.00 $11.00
011 Boreale $41.00 $11.00
018 Purple Groove $51.00 $13.50
014 Chairman's Choice $67.00 $17.50
017 Gentle Genius $81.00 $21.00
015 Cognac Trader $101.00 $26.00
012 Corporate Bruce $126.00 $32.25

On those prices listed above I would suggest that Gordo is the best value IMO although Lonhro would be my top pick.

Does any else have any thoughts on how these prepost markets can be distorted by the agencies standing to lose heaps given a certain result in doubles or straight out bets. A case in point is Niello from last week. He was as short as 4.00 on sportsbet during the week but got out to about 8.00 on Sat. I wonder if Lonhro will be available @ a better price when the betting is opened on Sat. To counter this is the fact that he is probably a true favourite whereas Niello clearly wasn't and was based solely on hype. Given, there is a certain amount of hype about Lonhro, but the same could be said for a number of horses in this race. Last year Sunline was around 3.80 in the betting before firming to start 2.90 Might we see 3.50 or 4.00 about Lonhro as I believe this is probably close to his true price.

If Lonhro gets out to around $4.00, and I doubt it, I'll be having a HUGE plunge on him for the place as well.

Hope it pays off and bad luck does not beat him.

Fields like this are notoriously a recipe for bumping, helter skelter affairs, where often the luckiest (not the best) horse wins.

In terms of my pure speed and pace figures a quick glance without any real form study shows:

Lonhro 108+ clearly the pick of the bunch, Boreal 107 if he can repeat his Villiers run (a big ask)
Shogun Lodge 106
Defier 106
Grand Armee 105 (with some upside from weight relief)
Gordo 105
Pruple Groove 104
Thorn Park 104
Dash for Cash 103

Some of the others like Scenic Peak are capable of producing ratings good enough to win but not on a consistent basis.


No to get a little controversial....I'm willing to take on Defier. My figures suggest he isn't likely to be as effective over 1600m with a big weight and solid pace. Plenty may disagree and he may well make a fool of me and win by 3 lengths, but i'm willing to risk him!

Thorn Park is the other I think is suspect in the pressure cooker of a group 1 mile, even well down in the weights. I'm willing to take him on as well.

Lonhro is clearly the one to beat, but looking at the longer priced brigade the value that stands out to me is Boreale and Purple Groove.

Boreale's win in the Villiers last December was huge. The early pace was fast and he showed he could handle that pressure and still run very good time. I have a big question about his fitness and current form but J Hawkes can get the less fancied ones to run a big race on the day. He produced Boreale to win the VIlliers 2nd up last time. He's well down in the weights here and while I don't think he's as good at Lonhro or Defier, he is 10 times the price.

Purple Groove was the run of the day in the Coolmore. The early pace was very slow and she was the only horse to make big ground in the race. The leaders were going very quick in the run home and her effort to make so much ground shows she has some serious speed. Last Spring she ran 2nd to Miss Zoe on Derby Day (who was flying at the time) and then ran a close up 4th in the G1 Emirates over 1600m. That combined with her run in the Coolmore makes me think she has developed into a good quality mare. She's pretty good value at $51, especially if she can get some pace on and it happens to rain (which looks possible this week).

Overall an interesting race. Nothing like sticking your neck out and be willing to risk 2 of the top 3 favourites. Time will tell!

Do like the current odds on offer for the following:

Excellerator $11.00 $3.50 * My top pick at this stage
Dash for Cash $11.00 $3.50
Gordo $11.00 $3.50
Shogun Lodge $15.00 $4.50
Miss Zoe $21.00 $6.00
Scenic Peak $26.00 $7.25
Crawl $41.00 $11.00

Lonhro & Defier are obviously big chances, but a bit too short currently to attract my money

Lonhro $3.00 $1.50
Defier $5.00 $2.00

If I recall correctly Lonhro was weighted on 56kg in this race last year but didn't run. As a 3yr old that was 0.5kg over WFA this year he is carrying 0.5kg under WFA. In this time he has won 4xG1, 3xG2, 1G3. Admittedly the past few wins were after weights were released and he could not be penalised but still.

By way of comparison Defier had 51.5kg last year -6.5WFA and he now carries 58kg (WFA) that is he got penalised 6.5kg for winning 2 G1 and 2 G2. Compared with Lonhro who effectively went back 1kg for his wins. This means one of a couple of things: Lonhro is in light this year; Lonhro was terribly handicapped last year and the handicapper has virtually admitted it by this years figures.

Another point is that Defier is up 1.5kg on last years Epsom despite not having won since and the fact that this is a better field.

Getting to the point (eventually) I would agree with ossuldj in potting Defier, @ the current price he is terrible value.

Does this make him a good thing?

Betty, I agree with you about the short prices for favourites. Obviously they are the ones to beat, but in this sort of race where I'm struggling to choose between two or threee short ones (plus I have Defier double with Polar Success at $61 so no need to back again), I'm going to take several longer priced shots, and Defier wins then I will be very happy anyway, and if Lohnro wins (and probably will) won't shed too many tears. Still on a high after Slipper.

This way I can cheer a for a few horses in the race and my outlay will be much smaller. I'm going to back e/w -

Scenic Peak
Shogun Lodge
Purple Groove
Grand Armee
Gentle Genius

Good luck to all having a go,
Cheers,
Cosmo

[ This Message was edited by: Cosmo on 2003-04-16 02:14 ]

Neck on the block time...I'll be laying Lonhro, WFA horse who hasn't beaten much, this is his big test. Hats off to him if he can win though.

Prices at: 16:25:38, 16 Apr 2003 NSWTAB
No. Selection Win Place
002 Lonhro $3.00 $1.50
001 Defier $5.00 $2.00
016 Thorn Park $8.00 $2.75
004 Excellerator $11.00 $3.50
005 Dash for Cash $11.00 $3.50
008 Gordo $11.00 $3.50
010 Grand Armee $13.00 $4.00
003 Shogun Lodge $15.00 $4.50
013 Miss Zoe $21.00 $6.00
007 Scenic Peak $26.00 $7.25
006 Crawl $41.00 $11.00
009 Carael Boy $41.00 $11.00
011 Boreale $41.00 $11.00
018 Purple Groove $41.00 $11.00
014 Chairman's Choice $67.00 $17.50
017 Gentle Genius $81.00 $21.00
015 Cognac Trader $101.00 $26.00
012 Corporate Bruce $126.00 $32.25

DEFIER - LONHRO - SHOGUN LODGE - DASH FOR CASH*

Dash For Cash ew

_________________
"Horses can and will make fools of us"

[ This Message was edited by: Redcraze on 2003-04-17 10:43 ]

EXCELLERATOR has been scratched :eek: :sad:

At the odds I think Scenic Peak is a good e/w bet. Was only a couple of lengths off Northerly and Republic Lass last start. Purple Groove might just be the smokey of the day.

Cheers,
Cosmo

Hi all,

It's been pouring rain here in Sydney all day and it's forecasted to continue throughout the Easter break. I would say that at this stage we are looking at a slow track.

Under those conditions I think Shogun Lodge, Crawl and Scenic Peak have even less chance than they did on a dry track. Defier, who I was willing to risk even on dry ground must become an even bigger risk in the wet. Guy Walter has mentioned numerous times that he doesn't like it much worse than Dead. Thorn Park has not yet been exposed to the wet.

Lonhro is likely to shorten further but he's already 2/1 in an 18 horse field! Expect some big money to come for him and we could be looking at a 6/4 or 7/4 favourite come start time.

The other form consideration is barriers. Come race 8, out wide may be the place to be. Horse drawn in could be forced to race in the chopped up going while wider runners enjoy the better ground.

Prices at: 16:08:22, 17 Apr 2003 NSWTAB

No. Selection Win Place
002 Lonhro $2.65 $1.40
001 Defier $6.50 $2.25
016 Thorn Park $6.50 $2.35
008 Gordo $9.00 $3.00
005 Dash for Cash $11.00 $3.50
010 Grand Armee $13.00 $4.00
003 Shogun Lodge $17.00 $5.00
013 Miss Zoe $21.00 $6.00
007 Scenic Peak $26.00 $7.25
009 Carael Boy $26.00 $7.25
018 Purple Groove $34.00 $9.25
006 Crawl $51.00 $13.50
011 Boreale $51.00 $13.50
014 Chairman's Choice $71.00 $18.50
015 Cognac Trader $81.00 $21.00
017 Gentle Genius $101.00 $26.00
012 Corporate Bruce $151.00 $38.50
004 Excellerator Scratched Scratched

G'day osulldj and others,

In respect of the likelihood of a rain-affected track tomorrow, just be wary of the advertised state of going. As it is a major meeting with massive investments anticipated, sometimes the officials are somewhat reluctant to downgrade the state of the track for fear og adversely affecting turnover and this can be a trap for the unwary punter. Therefore, it is wise to monitor the times in races preceding the Doncaster and make up your own mind as to the true condition of the track. Also, I agree totally with our fellow forum contributor, that we must note if horses are going wide searching for firmer ground. As you are experienced punters you know the value of watching for these important factors-it can make all the difference between a horse which can handle dead going as opposed to it's ability to handle slow or heavy going. It can be a real "wealth-hazard."

Cheers.

Should the track be rated as heavy,forget about the Doncaster and get on Grey Song in the Chairmans Hcp,it's a nob in the wet,the heavier the better.

Lonhro-Thorn Park-Purple Groove-Gordo

Prices at: 08:18:46, 19 Apr 2003 NSWTAB

No. Selection Win Place
002 Lonhro $2.65 $1.40
016 Thorn Park $6.50 $2.35
008 Gordo $9.00 $3.00
005 Dash for Cash $11.00 $3.50
010 Grand Armee $13.00 $4.00
013 Miss Zoe $21.00 $6.00
007 Scenic Peak $26.00 $7.25
009 Carael Boy $26.00 $7.25
018 Purple Groove $34.00 $9.25
006 Crawl $51.00 $13.50
011 Boreale $51.00 $13.50
014 Chairman's Choice $71.00 $18.50
015 Cognac Trader $81.00 $21.00
017 Gentle Genius $101.00 $26.00
012 Corporate Bruce $151.00 $38.50
001 Defier Scratched Scratched
003 Shogun Lodge Scratched Scratched

(2) Lonhro, (6) Crawl, (7) Scenic Peak, (17) Gentle Genius

(2) Lonhro.
(16) Thorn Park.
(10) Grand Armee.

At odds (13) Miss Zoe.

Angel, good onya mate! An excellent tip, Grey Song, paying $6.70 & $2.40 NSW, Unitab:- $7.70 & $2.60-top stuff!

Cheers.

The neck was on the chopping block.....and was never in doubt.

Your shout!!

Over the years, this race has provided so many long-priced winners that it is definitely a bonanza for those prepared to lay the favourite(remember Pharoah).
How were you feeling during the race?

As soon as he didn't settle in the first 3 I knew i was safe. At the 800 I actually said out loud he'd be lucky to run a place. Nice to be right some times.

:smile:

Xanadu,thanks mate.Nice result(for me anyway!)with Grey Song getting the money.Absolute knob in the wet,can't understand how it went around at such good odds.

Angel,

That's why we bet mate. Despite all the ups and downs in punting, we just wait for those rare occasions when the public steer clear of a particular runner and we clean up. Patience, that's the key to long-term punting success.
Keep up the good work.

Cheers.

A word of congrats to you Angel re Grey Song. But... he who hesitates!... after seeing Grey Song at $26 in the morning paper I was ready to dive in. However left it to the last minute and saw the TAB (NSW) at 6.70 and stopped to think about it, only to find the race had started and Grey Song did a Thorpie.
Also a good effort by Osulldj who had the first 4 placings in the Doncaster amonst his raw ratings listed. Your comments on Boreale encouraged me to try him each way. Thanks for the pointer and hope you didn't fine tune your ratings away from a good result.

Well done again Angel. Kudos also to Ossulldj. Backed the six roughies I mentioned e/w and was happy to have a little on Grand Armee, but was kind of relieved in the end that Strasbourg didn't win, as I had five doubles with it but for some reason didn't include Grand Armee in them, despite backing e/w. Good result Angel and Xanadu. Well done.

Cheers,
Cosmo