A bit off topic but I need some help.
 

I've got a 22 year old son who has quite an amazing talent when it comes to poker but he's finding it real tough listening to his old man when it comes to money management. I've seen him turn miniscule amounts of money in to thousands only to get up the next morning and see it gone.

I don't know much about poker but I'm sure the money management aspect is pretty similar to the strategies all you semi and professional punters use on here and I'd be real grateful for any comments, advice etc that I can show him from others rather than his ol' man being in his ear all the time. He just might believe a few people that have been there done that over many years.

The reason I ask right now is because he's very recently come to live at home again for a few months and because he wanted to pay his way whilst he was here (he lost his job and refuses point blank to go on the rock and roll) he threw me 50 bucks and asked me to put it in his 888 Poker account via my bank account which I did.

In less than 24 hours he's turned that in to $73K (I wouldn't have believed it either if I hadn't seen it for myself) so this time I'd love him to keep it rather than thinking he's 10 foot tall and bullet proof.

I know this is not about horse racing but I'd be very grateful for any money management comments so maybe he will listen to seasoned professionals.

Money Management is important no matter what your doing. This may sound a bit lame but everybody takes into account money management each day (or the vast majority) when your shopping online, buying groceries, changing your superannuation options, its all to do with the optimum money management of minimising your losses and maximising your winners (i.e. finding the cheapest but most effective option).

I'm not super profitable from gambling or make a living from it like some here, but i'm 26 years old and already learnt heaps regarding betting (NBA, horses, poker). Money Management is key, and you'd be surprised how helpful recording your bets or action for the day can help you with your discipline. I mean whats the point in making $73k if you blow it the next day, you've really achieved nothing and your no better then the next guy.

I work as a Paraplanner (writing financial plans for people) and everything we deal in is minimising losses, maximising gains. Ask any profitable share trader and they will tell you that they would prefer to minimise losses with stop losses, breakeven stops, trailing stops as they want to give as little back to the market as possible while maximising what they can take away. Playing poker is no different, if you let your emotions get the best of you and play a silly hand, lose your (for instance) $1,000 table value and instantly top it up trying to chase the losses that shows a real lack of discipline and will throw your bankroll away as quick as you got it.

Clearly the guy knows how to play, so why not make the best of your talents and maximise your returns with some basic money management. It may be hard to get used to in the begining but the lessons learnt and discipline gained will not only help with his poker account, by life lessons as well (saving for a car, house, holiday).

If he really wants to get serious, my suggestion would be to use a % of bankroll each day and if loses it, thats it for the day and wait until the next to begin playing again or at least wait a couple of hours. While hes waiting, update a spreadsheet with what he lost, why he thinks he lost it, and how he could have potentially played it better. He will be amazed at how beneficial it will be to not only record your own thoughts at the time but also to read back over them.

Anyway thats my long winded post, as I said i'm no guru but i've read plenty on various shares and gamling sites and seen enough issues through work (people on $300k net family incomes struggling to make any savings due to poor money management with huge debts etc) that suggests money management is essential to winning long term.

If I were 22 again I'm sure I would be right into online poker.
My advice would be to withdraw half of the profit at the end of each session and consider the remainder as his bank. Ask his dad to put it into the bank for him.
Congrats to him.

Thanks so much Eva and SB, I really appreciate it. I've had a win with him today as he's starting to listen and agreed to start with 2K per day and win, lose or draw he walks away. It's a good start and especially as he broke 75K earlier today and then did his ******** for 8K in 2 hands. We live and learn.

Take $72000 out now and lock it intp a Term Deposit for 3 months. Tell him to keep playing as though he's down to his last $1000. If he increases that greatly do the same again. $73000 in one day, geez, this kid's got some talent.

I agree here. If he is going to have his punting as an income then he must treat it as a job that he gets paid for. The first thing he must do is pay himself out of his profits. Pay himself and put that money away. Invest it, put it somewhere that is a little harder to get at. Then he must allow for contingencies such as blowing his bank.So he must put something away in a different area for this. While he keeps the money in play it is not his. He has it in the "bank" or on the table. It is cashflow and available for whoever claims it. The only way it is his is when he claims it as his own and takes it OFF the table. Remember that money is like honey, it attracts and everybody that touches it, leaves with some sticking to their fingers.
IT IS HARD TO EARN MONEY - IT IS TEN TIMES HARDER TO KEEP IT.
This not only goes for your son but everybody that is punting seriously and everybody that is working for themselves. Beton

Thanks Mark, this kid played Zynga Poker on FB since he was 16 and accumulated over 4.6 billion chips which is a very tall ask if you know it and play it. He just seems to know with pretty good accuracy what everyone else has, he has a huge talent. Darned if I know where he got that from but it sure weren't me.

Thank you so much guys, you can't buy this stuff! Let's hope he listens, what was that saying, you can take a horse to water? We'll see what happens.

I think the saying is You can take a horse to tha tables but I bet it can't win $70,000.

I reckon Black Caviar could.

Didn't she look powerful in the body the other day? I wondered if she would come up as well as before but as soon as I saw her walking around I knew the answer.

So macs, he's not just on a heater? He plays good most of the time or did he just get lucky in a tournament or something?

All good and sound advice posted here.

Above it's start with a minimum $2,000.

Walks away when he loses it fine.

You also have to have a maximum whether it be ,
Hours played, hands played, etc ( i am not a poker player).

Put into a punting perspective there has to be a maximum winning amount you will stop at.

What if he started with the $2,000 at one stage was the 75,000,
In front then gave it all back ?.

Like having $100.00 to start with on the 1st of 8 races,

You continue all up backing all the winners up to race=7,
Then wacking the lot into the last race to see it go down by,
A nose, sure you only lost the initial $100.00 but what amount,
Could you have been up at the 7th race.

So for me not understanding the poker just the staking,
There has to be a minimum ("AND A MAXIMUM")
Be it money won, no's of hands or hours played etc.

Re read Betons qoute on money earnt money kept etc.

And good on you Macs for realizing the ability and,
Possible demise if the situation is not addressed.

Good luck with it all.

Cheers.
Garyf.

"So macs, he's not just on a heater? He plays good most of the time or did he just get lucky in a tournament or something?"

He's always been good at turning a few dollars in to good money TO but he's never been able to keep it.

Thanks Garyf, much appreciated, he hasn't read any of this as yet as he's playing again and I can't really believe what's happening. I just watched this kid go up against one guy with a 45K pot and win, he's now up to 98K within less than 30 hours.

Another point that has to be considered is the elephant in the room.
He is playing online, He is winning and he has not tried to withdraw his winnings. He should be able to withdraw his money at any time. But then again he may not be able. Leaving all of it there will leave it all at risk. There are more players in the game than those that are playing poker. It is better to remove some on a constant basis than allow somebody suddenly say you can't take any. Very few people actually don't mind paying out large amounts, but it is against human nature. While it is on the table or in their account they have total control and total ownership of your money and like a bank treat it as their own.
In business I have handled some quite large amounts and I have always found the same adage. Greater the amount- more you have fight to get it into your own bank.

Spot on beton. Getting it out can be a trick.
Good on you for looking out for him too macs.

Thanks Beton, we've already contacted 888 this evening to find out where he stands. Looks like they have Mr. Shane Warne advertising for them so you'd hope you can get your money.

Has to be a bit of good advertising for them surely, young Aussie kid makes 100 grand in a day! He was up to 105.

What's he playing? What are the stakes?

You said he started with $50 and he is now playing 40k pots??

Are you sure he isn't playing with play money? This is a real money table?

If he HAS made that in 1 day then he is on a heater. No doubt about that. I would stop RIGHT NOW and try and withdraw some of it. See how you go.

Having played online poker for a while now in a heck of a lot of rooms (I was what you call a bonus whore) I reckon I always went well when first starting out in a room (and also when I returned after being away for a long time). But, when I played the same room each night, I noticed the cards started to turn and you would always be losing those hands that you were winning in the beginning. Always getting beaten by bad beats.

It was probably just me but, hey, that's what seemed to happen.

LoL TO, it's real money. He ended up at 96K for the day, he's stopped now. We'll see how it goes to get his funds.

I'm glad he's stopped for the day and I hope Warney's not using some of your son's winnings on Liz.

What was he playing? Was he moving up the stakes levels after he won plenty on the previous levels?

If Warney needs part of 96K we're all in trouble TO :) He only ever plays Texas Holdem and he always plays the biggest tables his funds will allow, scares the h ell out of me.

Thanks again everyone for all your comments and I sincerely hope some of it rubs off. What the kid achieved yesterday is life changing for him as long as he gets his dough.

He might be a gun, macs (or a son of a gun ;) ) but this is exactly what he shouldn't be doing (money management wise) because this will just end in tears.

He really should only be risking maybe 5%, 10% or max 20% (really too high though) of his bankroll at any one time (not all of it).

I'm not sure of the stakes levels but if he is playing a $500/$1000 table for example then he really should only be playing a $50/$100 table bringing 10% of his funds to the table.

Money management is about being able to fight another day (or lots of other days), not risk it all on the turn of a card.

Maybe I didn't explain that real well TO, he never takes his bank to a table, he's not completely stupid, just young and full of the exuberance of youth.

Some tables he was playing on yesterday wouldn't let him sit down with small amounts after he'd been there and won so he'd have to sit with 10-12K which he did but that was the largest I saw. I was more referring to the blinds, he loves them up around $200-$400 as he reckons if you're on song you can make 5-10K in a few hands. My question is always what happens if you're not on song? I just get a grin and no comment.

Ah, to be bullet proof. As you say, you are not always on song and what if one of the other players is more on song than him?

10-12k is maybe okay then if you have a 60k plus (20%) bankroll but not if you only have a 12k bankroll.

Good luck to him anyway. I would love to be good at poker and not a break even or less player.

I think he's got a definite problem getting his money now TO. He did exactly the opposite of what I suggested and stayed up with his Brother in Law playing until 5am which I had no idea about when I posted earlier as I left for work appointments at 7.30am.

Believe it or not and I wouldn't blame anyone for the answer being not, his account now has well in excess of half a million dollars in it but I can't believe it's real, there has to be a catch somewhere even if it is promoted by the great Shane Warne. He's already contacted 888 Poker so we'll just sit back and see what happens.

:eek:

Nothing personal but I don't believe it. All I can say is that he must be on one h ell of a heater and to get out as soon as possible.

Has he ever played live before? With that sort of bankroll he could play in all those world series of poker and world poker tour events which have a 10k buy-in.

Macs
I will continue as the devil's advocate. There may be 2 problems. Firstly there is the problem of getting his money out. That is paramount. You have to ensure that he can get his money out now and in the future. The second is another elephant. That this does not control him. When I was young gambling could have controlled me except that I got taught a lesson very early after leaving the local game with my winnings.

Going up in stakes is going be a different game with a diferent type of people.

I suggest that he works out a comfortable bank to start with each session and pull everything else off the table each day.

Well he's just blown his 'rock & roll' eligibility bigtime;)

Seriously though, as with all things, until the the folding stuffs in your skyrocket, she's all 'woulda, coulda, shoulda'.

Get the cash off him and buy some blue-chips and maybe an investment property.

Good luck to him, he can now retire!

Proves nothing. Aces get cracked all the time (oh, hang on, then it IS rigged). :D

Of course Mac's son is the guy going all in with a K6 at the moment. Tomorrow he will be the one with the AA.

nah, didnt post it to 'prove anything', other than these guys are either all nuts or trust fund babies or probably both;)

Hi macs
I believe you !!!
Any chance of an update to this incrdible story.

Hi Sharntee, yes there's an update alright but as one or two of the experienced guys around here said getting his money could be a problem and it is. The bottom line is their terms and conditions read like a 101 ways we will keep your money!

Fatal mistake number 1, he deposited the funds from his Mum's account, not his own, it's against their rules. Fatal mistake number 2, he opened an account over a year ago and hasn't used it for many months so opened another one, it's against their rules and for both of these they can close your account and keep your funds at their discretion. It's not over yet by a long way but I'm not feeling confident at all.

The Ocho, the attachment is just for you. I don't mind looking like a tool if I've made a mistake but I'm not real fond of anyone thinking I've made up a story for 5 minutes of fame, it's not my style! Just saying, no hard feelings mate.

I dont know how those site work, but Macs is there any way you can create an account, fund it legit, and play your son to try and win his loot?

Chip dumping is about no3 on the list, they know exactly when it's been done via their systems. We're trying to do this the right way and to be fair to them they haven't said no, we're not paying you but they are totally aware of how the account was funded and we are still waiting to hear back from them.

Obviously we won't let it go without a fight but he has broken their rules. The kid just wanted to see if he could turn his 50 bucks in to a decent bank and had no idea this would happen. We live and learn but as I've said to him, even if they do take your money they can't take your talent. He's been invited to a million dollar torny at 6.30am tomorrow morning so we'll see how he goes.

Macs
(1) Obviously they are trying to find ways to avoid paying. So you have several ways to approach this. (a) walk away, (b) fight or (c) compromise.
(a) may be the least painful. you lost $50 and learnt plenty. (b) To stand there and fight with their resources you are going to lose a lot more than $50.
(c) if you can get something out of them plus a legitimate means of getting more do so.

They have their rules to back them in any fight and will win in any court. They also are holding the bikkies. You do have another weapon in your arsenal other than truth. Social media and the internet.
You can create a web page and if you do it correctly it will rank over their site. You can then get comment from other victims. each comment you ask for a link, it may be to another similar site or comment so long as it has some relevance. Each comment you create a new page. Each page you link to your page plus every otherpage. In each new page you place a list of keywords. Each new page is new comment. In a very short time nobody can search their webpage without getting 100 pages of negative comment. It is all done with backlinks and forward links. The more of these you have the higher up the search engine you go.

That all I am going to give you. Read it, comprehend it, then ask them what they think about the idea. Ask them to ask their advertising team about it.
It is a game changer.

Thanks Beton, with plenty of friends in IT that is totally achievable if need be, I hope it's not. The thing that gets to me is even if they do keep it the people that lost it will never see it again, it goes straight to their bottom line which is just criminal.

Talk about a learning curve! I just feel sorry for the lad, he doesn't understand about corporates and their devious ways, he just loves playing poker.

These guys make the totes, Betfair and the bookies look like philanthropists.
I do agree that shouting as loud as you can is the way to go and a letter from the likes of Slater and Gordon might put the wind up them and get you on the TV news and current affairs programs. 888 would not like that.
Good Luck
Ron

Beton, I've just reread your post as I was running late for my last appointment when I replied before. Ha, you mention truth, I've been working along side, with but never for corporations for over 20 years and I can't remember that word ever being spoken, I don't think it exists in their vocabulary does it?

Thanks for taking the time for the comprehensive post, I will most certainly stash those ideas away for a rainy day which I think maybe fast approaching.

Shout we will Foxwood, if it was 600 bucks I wouldn't care, 600K will change my boys life.