TAB now banning successful Punters/Fixed Odds Bettors?
 

A recent article from Fair Wagering:


TABCORP AND THE ‘GENUINE (COMMERCIALLY VIABLE) CUSTOMER’


PDF http://fairwageringaustralia.files....exp-feb2015.pdf

Fair Wagering has been handed an extraordinary document that lifts the lid on Australia’s biggest wagering operator’s attempts to severely restrict winning punters at TAB retail outlets.

It looks as though Tabcorp recently sent the document out to agents on its 2600-strong retail network across New South Wales and Victoria. The missive appears to be an attempt to placate agents in at least 100 TAB’s who have reported plunging commissions as a result of restrictions placed on the size of all bets, even if just one punter is winning.

Tabcorp referred to “expanded risk management” in their fixed odds division at a recent mid-year presentation – we now know what it means for punters, and it ain’t pretty.

Tabcorp have officially joined the scourge that has become rife within the Australian corporate bookmaking community.

They are no longer bookies and are simply accountants who wish to manage money (bets) from mug punters.

Because all punters are “mugs” and have trouble with even basic English, we at FWA have paraphrased some of the key points in Tabcorp’s “Fixed Odds Liability Q&A” to help you to better understand corporate language.

If you want to read it for yourself, here it is. Otherwise, allow us.

From Tabcorp document, "Fixed Odds Liability Q & A"
From Tabcorp document, “Fixed Odds Liability Q&A”

i.e. We drove all winning punters off our website by rejecting any bets that didn’t suit us. Don’t get too excited if they roll up to your agency ready to bet big, turnover lots and help your business.

As soon as one of our bookmakers (accountants) get a whiff that a winning punter is betting in a TAB agency, we’ll flick a switch and shut the agency down. No 10 second reset or phone call will help.


From Tabcorp document, “Fixed Odds Liability Q&A”

i.e. If we have to manage all 2600, we will. The winning punters that we are trying to get rid of have thankfully only made it to 100 agencies so far.


From Tabcorp document, “Fixed Odds Liability Q&A”

i.e. VERY IMPORTANT POINT. Only losers are “genuine customers”. We don’t want winning punters getting in the way of our profits. If you spot a winning punter (non-genuine customer) in your agency, stay calm; alert us, we’re here to help.

From Tabcorp document, "Fixed Odds Liability Q&A"
From Tabcorp document, “Fixed Odds Liability Q&A”

i.e. If it’s 6pm on a Friday night and there are only two punters in your agency having $1 mystery trifectas and a winning punter (non-genuine customer) walks in wishing to bet big and hard with your turnover incentivised agency, DO NOT BET THEM. We at headquarters make a gross profit of $10 million a week off fixed odds bets. That’s not enough, we want more!

Don’t worry about your own little business, that’ll sort itself out in the long term, sorta, kinda??!!

———-

We are informed that the NSW Office of Liquor, Gaming and Racing are looking into Tabcorp’s new fixed odds management procedures. We’ll forward this onto them.

Tabcorp, through tab.com.au, retail outlets, Luxbet and Sky Racing are the undisputed driver of the racing industry. They need to, and are entitled to be profitable. But who is betting to lose? We all need to at least know that one day maybe we can be winners. If this new style of management becomes the norm, we will all only ever be losers. Tabcorp can take us for granted at its own peril.

Perhaps there should be a warning whenever you enter a TAB outlet in New South Wales or Victoria – ‘WARNING: GENUINE CUSTOMERS ONLY. BETTING TO WIN WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.


Source: http://fairwageringaustralia.com/tag/banned-punters/


Will keep this updated with any information I receive.

Fixed odds revenue at @tabcomau up 38% assisted by risk management
 

Link: http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/201402...kjrgfflntnw.pdf

Simply utterly insane.

& where the hell is the ACCC in all this??

Flabergasting!

Anyone been affected or heard of others that have? I thought the TAB were one of the good guys.

TABCORP is a business. If they are to compete with others in the punting realm then they have to use the same tactics or find themselves losing money.

The only way it will stop is by government intervention.

I don't bet anywhere but betfair now. And who knows that could be gone to Aussies soon as well (Don't say it can't happen, just look at Greece).

Yep- walked into a tab in Sydney's south the week of round 3 in the NRL , so a fortnight ago. Try to place a bet of $3000 on an NRL team. The lady says I'm sorry you can only have $50 on that, I said I beg your pardon, she says yep orders from above. I said so - $50 max bet? Yep she says , ok I will write another 59 tickets out for the same bet to get the same result, is that ok? She says yeah sort of I think so- yes do it that way.
Had a mate I bet with on the same sport, ring up to place 2k on the same game on our account and the operator says no. He says what do u mean no? No I said it's too much, he then gave her a mouth full saying it was our money and we could do what the hell we wanted with it, she gave in and placed the bet.

As I may have said before, whether or not you are a losing large punter, anything over $50 flags you as a professional and not a recreational punter.
They want recreational punters only, as they believe they are all mugs.

They are costing themselves millions by this nonsensical limit.
I know many large punters who have lost "professional" amounts ever year.
And I'll take 1.01 odds that this will be their defence. :eek:
Responsible gambling et al.

Seems there's only a couple of good bookies left now.

I was banned by Luxbet ages ago.
I'd like to know who these alleged "good bookies" are.

I was thinking about this.

I don't care anymore about the bookies. Why would I? I do all my punting on betfair. I don't arb and I don't need to place bets at bookies and I can get the liabilities I need on at betfair.

But for arbers its a different story.

If it (minimum liabilities) does happen the result of it will mean lower odds offered by bookies in Australia or they will move offshore meaning less protection for Australian residents. If they move offshore then your basically gambling by just keeping any funds with them. But if you don't use them you will not be able to arb and even then the banning will just continue anyway.

Not that i'm in the league of some of you folk, but it seems like an absolute joke that you can't walk into your local TAB and place a bet over $50.

I've got mates who earn good money at the mines and bet over $50 a bet regularly and generally don't make money. Not to mention even a syndicate with mates i'm involved with bets $60 a week.

If they are going to start limiting themselves that heavily then surely the government has to step in. The problem is they probably don't want to be seen as encouraging a professional punting lifestyle or irresponsible gambling of betting above $50.

On the flip-side of this, does it not open up an opportunity for betfair to become highly profitable by taking these bigger punters onboard and/or a new player coming in on the scene that can navigate the larger bets and turn a profit? Maybe not but it seems like a pretty large chunk of the market may be getting cut out and if thats the case it may open up the door for someone more savvy to make a dime.

Also is this only limited to the NSW/VIC TAB at the moment? I haven't heard of it happening to anyone with tatts yet (SA)

There's another point, what drama do you think is going to be raised at the local TAB when a bloke is trying to get back his losses on the last couple of races and the bet is refused.
It's going to get very ugly for the agent.
I'm quite sure that the whole thing is going to end up like the old plunge stories, where a punter rings his mates to simultaneously put bets on a different tab locations to fly under the radar for a slice of the pie.

It also infuriates me that bonus offers are advertised all over the place in Vic and SA yet we are unable to legally use them.

Honestly this was always going to happen, gone are the days when bookies were punters it is a business and as such they want to make money and it is thier choice who they sell too.

People just assume because it is Tab run it will be any different from another bookie, nope, as for getting losses back on the last few race, no problem here as long as they back on the tote,

As for betfair getting involved, if there is money on the opposing team they will gladly match anything put up other wise they will end up in the same boast as all the rest and we know the business itself has had issues in the past anyways.

Can the government sort this out, maybe, will they, can't see it happening as in the 2 hard basket for them.

Why don't the bookies just run a tote operation with a 5% takeout.
After all that's what they are effectively doing but with a bigger takeout and around a million dollars in staff, software, programming and monitoring.

Strewth you're an honest lot.

CP I'm not sure only 90%, but running a totalizator is a state approved and granted monopoly in every corner of the world.
It's the proverbial license to print money.

Norfolk Island, Ireland, Malta would be exceptions.

https://www.palmerbet.com/Racing

I would imagine they will be the same as the others,
But you may get on for a while before it happens.

Don't know anyone betting with them at the moment,
Won't hurt to have a look, but again I stress could,
Be the (same old) (same old) I use their site for the on course price fluctuations,
As they are more accurate.

EG.
MACKAY R3-2 Dodge the Grey.
Was $2.3-$3.0 on course price.

MACKAY R3-4 Benny's Halo
Was $5.0-$6.0 on course.

Check with R.I.S.A.
These S/P'S are correct.

Corporates who display on course prices.

T/Sport
Betstar
Unibet.
T/Waterhouse.etc.

These all had the same prices for these respective runners.
$2.3-$2.6
$5.0-$5.0.

Good luck with them.

Cheers.

What Gary said.

Who was that mob that tried the offshore tote, was good prices but i think they lacked the numbers, i guess if a couple of bigger bookies with the advertising numbers got behind it then it might work.

On the other hand, it is hard to blame them for chasing part of this pie...& checkout the pokies losses, truly disturbing.

Those charts are pretty disturbing thats for sure. As you said the pokie machine stats are very scary. So many people are addicted to those things and I just cannot for the life of me understand how or why that is the case. You play one knowing your going to eventually lose no matter what and they are just dull to me but I guess each to their own.

Also I wonder how much of peoples pensions are put into pokie machines. You see some of those bowling clubs in/around the gold coast and they a chockers with pokie machines and retiree's playing them.

Not saying i'm a saint for doing a fair bit of recreational punting on sports/racing but it's because I have an interest in those things and they a human/animal driven. Not a machine that determines your eventual loss.

Like you said though stugots pretty obvious why these bookies operating in australia do what they do. And the problem is its hard to see a government going into bat for supporting gamblers as it would put too many noses out of place due to the perception that they would be encouraging further problem gambling.

Austote

And in other news(!) BETSTAR have just been bought out by none other than... wait for it...

LADBROKES!

http://community.betfair.com/austra...ed-odds-betting


It seems the TAB have been banning winners from January 14th, 2014.

I got limited to $25 stakes and $200 return last September... but according to that legislation, they should have allowed me to win $1500? ...at least until Jan anyway. Damnit.

hmm, I heard i'ts a conspiracy, "they" don't want too many cashed up Bogans.

Seriously though, the power of the computer has reached stale-mate.
TAB's, corporates etc now have to deal with those whose selection methods are better than the price/odd mechanism's smoke n mirrors.
And this number is increasing, more winners than losers.

As a Lay bettor, I'm stuck with Betfair, but have formed the view that providing you're not an Arber, just Back horses, then wouldn't the go be to open an account with every betting agency going? Not just to dilute your impact on any one provider and hopefully stay under the radar, but also to benefit from an average of all dividends?

Hawkesbury R2 was a good example: Organisms ~ NSW $9.10, UNI $24.20, STAB $11.30.

the hugely conspicuos absentee is no China.
wait till they properly get a hold of it
you will need a second graph just for them.

The problem is RP, it's even in that situation they are shutting people down.
As you have your bank spread out amongst so many bookies, each time you win you're shutdown, so you withdraw and top up the others, it's a domino effect. Sometimes you don't even have to place a bet, they share information and if you're successful with one (even by sheer luck), they tell their partners and run you out of town.
They want habitual losers who top up all the time and bet in small amounts so they can handle liabilities.

Ladbrokes have decided to not only ban WA VIC and SA from their offers, but also NSW which allows incentives.
They must really think that Tasmanians, Queenslanders and those from the ACT aren't sharp????
These offers really are misleading when three quarters of the country can't use them!

Geez, you'd reckon that Betfair's in the box seat now for successful Backers and Layers, despite the premium charge. God help us if JP closes the exchange! I know that some say that their turnover is declining, but there's still a good living to be made if your prepared to look at every race.

CP, providers of punting databases, that assist punters be successful, must be feeling the pinch too, if your customers are all getting shutdown. That is a domino effect?

Where do you see professional punting heading in the near future. Punters are very adept at changing techniques to suit the circumstances. Think about the movie 'The Great Escape'....lol

Do you think with more and more bookmakers banning winners/fixed odds, it might bring out new bookmakers who specifically advertise that they don't ban/limit winners and market themselves in this way?

Also if Betfair were to disappear/the idea of backing and laying, would that then create room for a new exchange? There's always going to be a market for people wanting to lay in Aus. What are your thoughts?

No. Why would they bother as it would be a disadvantage to them vs their compeititors.


No. Look at purple. They don't even offer odds to Australians anymore due to legal reasons.

I was listening to SEN radio this morning and Eskander, the previous owner of Betstar, was on & they were all carrying on how the takeover by Ladbrokes was 'good for punters' & 'great news for punters'.

Made me feel a bit ill...

Because less competition is always good .... (said sarcastically) :)

The day has come.

TAB have banned me. Although I think they should take all-comers, given my position on them, I don't blame them.

Have you got any bookies left Pat ? Its one of the issues with arbing.

I can only think of Pinnacle that accepts arbers.

Yeah I have a handful left. I'm also doing other stuff on the side though. Not having the TAB hasn't affected my profits at all, but in saying that it's still annoying. Over 90 days I turned over $102k with them and were (unfortunately) up $19k. Their accounts would have flagged me for sure.