I know that harness racing may not be the 'go' with members of this forum (not mine either), but I have some questions for which I have never been given satisfactory answers in the past.

1. Weight - Form analysts agonise over half a kg. weight difference with the gallops; why doesn't the weight of the harness driver matter? I've heard something about momentum of the sulky 'pushing' the horse along, but surely the weight of the driver/sulky would influence that? And at standing starts it must be harder for the horse to gather momentum if the weight is greater. Any comments?

2. Harness fields in the paper. - why don't harness fields include the legends next to each runner (eg b = beaten fav., d = won at distance, etc.)like the gallops fields. Even remote country gallops fields seem to show this info., while even metro. trots fields don't. Anyone know the reason?

bomber

Good question and I have often pondered this myself.
I don't have the answer however but consider this:
Try pushing a wheelbarrow over 400m. with a 14 stone person it and then try the same thing with a 10 stone person.
Pull a loaded trailer uphill with your car and then repeat with half the load.
In relation to a harness driver, whether a few pounds makes a difference is problematical.
A 14 stone man however, compared to a 7 stone female, for example, and the difference could be significant.
I guess this question could be answered by someone expert in the laws of physics.

[ This Message was edited by: Imagele on 2004-01-21 12:40 ]

Well! A lot of lookers Eh and not many opinions.
:smile:

[ This Message was edited by: Imagele on 2004-01-21 23:03 ]

yeah, & what does that mean?

Maybe weight is a relevant form factor in harness racing, but punters aren't getting this vital info.

or

Maybe the harness guys are right, & gallops punters are wasting a whole heap of time & effort 'doing the weights'. Maybe weight carried doesn't really matter as much as we think it does.

bomber

"Yeah, and what does that mean"
It means that 189 browsers have looked at this post and only 1 has replied with an opinion. (me)

Can't fault your logic, Imagele.

I'd love to know of all the 'viewers', how many don't know the answer, & how many just can't be bothered posting a response.

When I posted these questions I thought there would be a straight forward answer & it was only my ignorance that stopped me from understanding. Now I'm starting to think there is something deeper here that everyone turns a blind eye to.

an afterthought - If weight does matter in harness racing, it would be a very easy way to influence results if the connections were a bit crooked. (an idle thought, not an accusation!)

bomber

I'll have a go.
I went to school with someone who became a (not very famous) trot driver. Now I'm just a bit over jockey size & he was almost twice as big as me. He told me that although he was probably a bit big to get anywhere in the game, light people were also not suitable as the gigs (which are very light!) tend to bounce around, putting the horse off stride, if the driver does not weigh a certain amount. Does that make sense?

thanks Mark. What you say does make sense, but I would think that there must be an optimum weight which balances the sulky without impeding speed.

If this is so, it would be useful to know the variation above or below this weight for each driver. It still seems a basic & perhaps important piece of info. is missing from harness racing formguides.

bomber

Hi BB,

I'll have a go as well....

I think it all comes down to the following... On flat ground, would you rather carry 100Kg on your back, or in a wheelbarrow?

Relying on some very old physics lessons, it is well accepted that it takes far more energy to get something rolling than it does to keep it rolling... I think that the difference in work required by a horse in dragging around a 60Kg driver vs an 80Kg driver is marginal... probably much less of a factor than "barrier" draw, and where the horse gets to sit in the running..

I also think there is a lot of merit in the "momentum" comment... I often notice drivers "swinging" in the sulky... I can only think that the reason they do this is that they're trying to get the horse to run even faster by "pushing" it along....

At the end of the day, a driver's weight is probably factored into their "ability"... often you can get a winner simply by weighing up the drivers and the draw, as opposed to looking in depth at the form.

Cheers,
Chris.

stebbo is correct,

the swinging movement in the sulky is like riding a horse hands and heels...it's the shift of weight which spurs the horse on.

As far as I can recall, it's really only started happening in the last 20 years and I can't remember which driver started doing it.

As to the weight of the driver, obviously a few kilos here or there doesn't make as much impact on pacer or trotter because...

a) the horse is not galloping.
b) the horse is not "carrying" the weight, he is merely pulling it.

The weight he is pulling is only fractional to what he is capable of especially as he is not galloping.

You could walk a far longer distance with a brick, than you could run.

Thanks for the responses.

Chris - "it is well accepted that it takes far more energy to get something rolling than it does to keep it rolling... ". Doesn't this mean that driver weight is an important factor for 'standing start' harness races?
I like your idea about driver weight being a factor in 'ability'.

Chrome Prince - "You could walk a far longer distance with a brick, than you could run." Wouldn't the speed you can walk be influenced if the brick weighed 20lbs. rather than 7?
Your comment "The weight he is pulling is only fractional to what he is capable of.." is probably the key to all this. A few kg.s either way would probably not be noticed by an animal capable of pulling far greater loads.

Makes me wonder if we over emphasise the importance of weight variation when assessing gallops form. Can a couple of kg.s really make a difference to a horse? Maybe variations of less than 5kg.s are totally irrelevant.

Does anyone know if there has been a scientific study of weight vs performance in horse racing?

bomber

Hi BB,
Of course the above is correct, however, the weight ratio of a couple of kilos to a horses body mass - that's the insignificant part.
You'll most likely find that height is probably more important because of centre of gravity around turns "half carting" and wind resistance.
Shifting of weight to spur the horse on first came about because a certain horse hated the whip and it could not be used or he'd break into a ferocious gallop.

I remember all this because it created quite a stir at the time and many thought it was a breach of rules.
Since then it's been adapted and learned by all the junior reinsmen.

On 2004-01-26 11:27, bellarine bomber wrote:
Thanks for the responses.

Chris - "it is well accepted that it takes far more energy to get something rolling than it does to keep it rolling... ". Doesn't this mean that driver weight is an important factor for 'standing start' harness races?

'standing start' = "gallop fest"...

to my mind, a dog race is far more predictable than a standing start harness race!!!! standing start races should be outlawed :evil:

Cheers,
Chris.

To answer to your second question first
They always did back in the days of the old Sporting Globe (the pink paper)but for some reason known only to themselves decided to stop doing it back in the 1980's (probably due to lack of staff as the trots was starting to go into decline and they cut back on their coverage).
Q1.The weight or the driver has very little effect on the performance of a pacer or a trotter because of the momemtum. An example of this was a pacer by the name of Garrison Call trained and driven by Russell Fiddler.
Russell tipped the scales at around 25 stone(about 160 kg) yet he won a lot of races.One night at the showgrounds they put Brian Gath in the gig and all the smarts sent him out odds on as Brian was only a lightweight(about 60 kg) they said he couldn,t lose. Led and duly got run down in the straight after having an easy run in front.If ever there was a case of weight making a difference that would have to have been the case to prove it but it didn,t.
p.s. Brian Gath was the driver who started the swinging in the sulky after he went to the states for the world driving championships as it was pretty much the standard way to rive over there.

thanks again for the responses.

My question about the formguide for harness meetings I'll file away as one of life's mysteries.

As for the impact of driver weight, everyone seems to agree that it doesn't matter either because of the 'momentum' theory or the fact that dragging something on wheels is so much easier that carrying weight on the back. I'll accept that, although I'm not convinced that weight isn't a factor at standing starts. Just another reason to leave such races alone.

What this has done though, is start me thinking about the importance of weight variations for the gallops. When A meets B 2kg.s better 'this time out', should I just ignore this? Can 2kg.s really make a difference to a fully fit half ton horse? Also along these lines, does the weight allowance for apprentice riders really compensate for their lack of experience?

bomber

Can 2kg.s really make a difference to a fully fit half ton horse? In my opinion - certainly can and does.

Does the weight allowance for apprentice riders really compensate for their lack of experience? In my opinion – yes in most cases but not all. Keeping out of trouble (eg. interference) or getting out of trouble, comes with experience.