Win vs Place systems
 

After these words from the good Lord :) on Dale's 'Rock Hard' thread, I decided to open some debate on Win v Place systems.

My opinion is that it is all relative. You get a higher POT with quality win selections, however you stake less due to the higher runs of outs.

The issue I have is getting value for the place and I find the really solid chances are often overbet for the place.

Any comments/feedback would be much appreciated as always. I know partypooper's an unabashed fan of the place bet. There are also a few 1 x 3 or 4 betters out there, Iomaca if I recall correctly? Your input would be well received!

The Schmile

Agree TheSchmile that it can be hard to find value for a place selection- the only way I have found to consistently do so is to chase prices on BF.

I used to use a bot to place all my bets & still do so for most of my win stuff, but for place betting I was missing out on too much juice & often getting matched at less than the TAB's.

Theres plenty of value to be had in most place markets however, just a bit of work required to obtain it.

The only thing i want to comment on is you need to run win and place betting as separate systems.

Never combine them even with a 1 x 5 bets, if your win bets perform well enough then just put all your money in to that market.

If you are the type of person that likes regular returns and the place selections perform well then go for that.

Or if they both show profit then do them both but do them separately.

You don't see people having a 5 x 1 with win bets and quinellas they always have 2 banks for them because on win bets you might back at 3% of the bank and with exotics might be 1%

I agree with what has been said, place prices are often undervalued on the very good bets and having separate banks is definitely the way to go. Personally I prefer win betting but a strong place betting system often allows more opportunity for loss recovery staking if a) the strike rate is high enough and b) there is a level stakes profit to begin with.

Generally, with place betting , it can be very good if targeting the 1.80+ price range.

The SR does not have to be as consistent as the shorter payers due to the stronger divideds

Using accumulator staking plans is another option for additional leverage.
Say over 3 bets.

Or the 1 3 2 staking approach.

Sorry Bhagwan, I totally disagree. A good selection process with a high strike rate is far more important than price. From my experience it takes a lot of luck to pull in regular place dividends above $1.80.



The staking plan I gave in the other thread will work great with dividends up to $1.50 if you have a high strike rate.

Another Place staking approach is...
10
15
20

After each place getter gets up.

Start again at the beginning if we gets bit.

If say they were 1.50 each
Profit
5.00
7.50
10.00
Total +22.50 Profit

If say 3rd bet falls over , we only lose -7.50 in total , due to the previous successes.

what i have found is the first thing you need to do is find a bookmaker that will give you best totes as often as possible.
The range between bottom and top dividend in place betting can be quite large - most of the time on a % basis wider than win

by doing that you can eliminate the first 6- 8% points of your disadvantage.

BF is quite good - but if you get too aggressive on non-metrops you can be left sitting out there without a bet all because for example you sat fat on $5.00 when $4.90 was the best available - the animal then invariable glides easily into 2nd place.

also if you miss your price on the metrops and have to take place SP it is most of the time worse than best place tote.

aussie

Exactly aussie, & why I find managing place bets from about the 3-4min mark is the only way to get a decent price, & also allows me to sneak a few trades in now & then.

Also find that some days there are just no overs in the place markets & I continue to get divy's less than the totes after commission, very annoying, but then the next day I am sitting on 20-30% above the TABS.

No rhyme or reason I can fathom why one day is different to the next & I hazard a guess why many punters can get put off using BF when they strike one of these 'bad value days'.

Thank you all for the great feedback and comments.

Judging on the responses so far, it might be prudent to note that just because a horse is value for the win, it might not necessarily be value the place and vice versa.

Question:
Is anyone using the place bet as a saver?

E.g. Win price $2.40 Place price $1.35

Divide 100 by the place price of 1.35 = 74.07%

Place 74.07% of a unit on the place.

Put the remaining 25.93% of a unit on the win.

If you're horse comes 2nd or 3rd, you get your money back.
If you're horse wins you get odds of $1.62.

It could help to smooth out the ups and downs of your betting bank.

It would work best if your selection method made more on the longer priced selections, as the percentage put on the win would be more.

Point to note: This technique only makes financial sense if your selections make a level stakes for both the win and the place. Otherwise, it's more for your general sanity on the punt. :)

The Schmile