I'll ditto that Shaun, but also include 115, 116, but I think overall mighty drop into the "Fun way to bet at the occasional day at the track " type system.

Also some merit exactly the same but 10, etc etc, basically last run unplaced.

As you say they both seem to work better working down the card from top weight til you hit a contender.

As far as the so called "optimist" is concerned, NEVER, NEVER, was a person so aptly named!