While I am on the subject,do any of the guys with databases of previous results have both the prepost and final prices included? if so could you please supply some figures, I guess something like a average ratio between the two or something similar. any figures you could come up with would be great. Malcolm Knowles mentioned in one of his little books some sort of ratios that you can apply. Unfortunately my copy has dissapeared into a black hole in my cupboard never to be seen again. a bit like the bermuda triangle.