Guitar Jim. In post 2 you referred to the bookies beating the punters (making a profit) AS A MATTER OF COURSE, just as the TABs do.I'm wondering if you could tell us how bookies arrive at their prices? This is not a dare, a challenge or any kind of attack. I've asked this many times and despite being assured it's "not rocket science" or "it's no riddle" or similar, no-one has PRECISELY explained it. Can you? Could you give an example? As you are aware, if ten Forum Members did their ratings in isolation there would be quite a discrepency between them, but NOT with the bookies (watch opening markets at the races). There is SOME with the bookies but not that much. Thanks, and hoping to read you (or anyone else who could enlighten us), P57