The Punt To Win articles regularly bag SA and Qld bookies for their poor top fluc percentages and quite rightly so.

Punt To Win is also flogging the services of a bookmaker whom I assume to be (EDITED)

Is that the reason that the Punt To Win articles never point out that Melbourne bookmakers percentages are equally as poor as the others mentioned? Top fluc markets of 130%+ have occurred in largish fields on each of the last 3 Saturday whilst 120% markets are the norm.

PTW editor's comments eagerly awaited

[ This Message was edited by: quapi on 2003-06-04 17:19 ]

Dear "Hammers",

We are not as you put it "flogging" anything.

We are giving punters the opportunity, through our contacts in the racing industry, to obtain a genuinely good betting deal with a well respected bookmaker who is polite and friendly to deal with.

The ability to give minimum odds with top fluctuation bets placed only 30 minutes before the race means that punters need never take poor odds, no matter what the market percentage.

Poor value is a real problem for punters who place top fluctuation bets without being able to give minimum odds needed.

The comment about Melbourne and Sydney bookmaker betting odds being on a par with Brisbane and Adelaide is plain incorrect and in any case irrelevant to the benefits for punters of this betting offer.

As an aside the TF betting markets for race 5 at Moonee Valley last Saturday was 105.7%, followed up by 114.52% and 114.16%.

A TF market shouldn't be any more than about 105%. But those markets - three races in a row, bare no comparison to the markets generally offered in Brisbane and Adelaide.(Of course there can be exceptions.)

If Melbourne and Sydney betting markets became consistently just as poor as Brisbane and Adelaide then it would be time to move on and only concentrate on sports betting where markets are regularly around 105% or less for two team or player contests.

Management.

Management,

I am amazed that a "reputable" service provider such as yourself could suggest that Melbourne bookmakers prices are comparable with the Sydney ring.

You misquoted me. I never suggested Sydney prices were as bad as SA,Qld. In fact, 105% TF markets in Sydney are normal. You picked a good race in Melbourne where the flucs were drastic and the field only 11 runners. Get a big field in Melbourne and check the garbage the thieves serve up. Your mate with the wonderful "service" included.Most other races on Sat besides the one you mentioned were around 120%. As MV has smallish fields that is the reason the regular 130+ didn't eventuate.

I can cop you critcising bookies that deserve it but protecting another bunch of bushrangers because you have a commercial interest does you credibility no good at all.

Top fluc is a service that punters provide bookmakers as they are forced to show their hand before betting opens. Fluctuations are always beatable on course. Don't for a minute dupe people into thinking this bookie is doing his clients a favour.

It is the reverse. The product wouldn't exist otherwise.

Sorry, we agree you never suggested Sydney prices were as bad as SA or Qld.

Re: "You picked a good race in Melbourne where the flucs were drastic and the field only 11 runners."

That was done randomly from the most recent Saturday meeting.

Re: "Most other races on Sat besides the one you mentioned were around 120%."

We randomly selected three consecutive races at the Moonee Valley meeting. All TF markets were below 115%.

Re: "I can cop you critcising bookies that deserve it but protecting another bunch of bushrangers because you have a commercial interest does you credibility no good at all."

We do not protect bookmakers out of a commercial interest.

Re: "Top fluc is a service that punters provide bookmakers as they are forced to show their hand before betting opens. Fluctuations are always beatable on course. Don't for a minute dupe people into thinking this bookie is doing his clients a favour."

This service is available for betting on races in the four main states, not just one state. It is not possible to go to the racetrack and get decent odds on races from the other three states from the weak interstate betting rings.

A large punter or stable would obviously show their hand - you can hardly set up a plunge that way.

But for your average punter betting $50, $100 or so it is a tremendous deal. An intelligent punter can of course also add some bogus top fluctuation bets - good bets at odds you don't expect to get to confuse the issue if you are really worried about showing your hand.

Due to time constraints and cost we are not in a position to enter into lengthy debate or respond to every person who wishes to query us. Your point about TFs in Melbourne has been noted and we'll have a closer look in coming weeks.

Management.

Gee Hammers,

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about a number of things propun does. Firstly it was the race callers criticism, now it's the betting odds and the offer provided by a bookmaker.

We can talk all day long and compare different State betting markets.

Propun have put forward an offer that is a genuine 'good deal' for punters and at the same time stimulates a commercial interest for them. There's nothing wrong with that as far as I'm concerned. There is no ******** or rip off, it's a good deal.

However the very best deal for punters lies in either being on course or using Betfair. (the odds of my winners since betfair was launched average 13% better than the declared top fluc and I can bet 5secs before they jump).

Official fluctuations are often not any indication of real prices bet on course and good track punters will always outperform TF. The other betting exchange is nowhere near the standard of betfair no matter which way you look at it i.e. ease of use, volume, prices etc.

I repeat, propun are promoting a good deal for punters ... not the best available to punters but a big improvement for most who bet on the TAB and constantly accept poor prices. The difference between those prices and something like Propun are offering would be the difference between winning and losing for many.

Hi osulldj,

Good points.

There is a major problem going to the track if you want to bet interstate. Because of the lack of competition from the few bookies betting interstate and poor oddds offered as a result, often below the call, you are usually restricted to betting on your local races.

Also, because you cannot see single price movements with say one bookie in the home state betting ring to get a feel of the betting the next prices given from interstate can catch you out as the few local interstate ring bookies slavishly follow them or bet under.

A portable computer might enable you to bet online, but I think that all adds up to a very stressful day. It is tough enough work keenly watching price movements in your own state betting ring and deciding when to strike.

Neil.

If you are not happy with TF, I have found a site http://www.bookies.com.au where you can view live bookmakers prices just like being in the ring. You can bet with any bookie from a single account and only bet when you are happy with the price.