I'm sorry. I told you I didn't understand it. You probably think I'm really stupid, but I'm only used to betting on horses to win, not lose.

What I'm trying to work out is this. Using the example Duritz made, if you bet $100 on the horse to win at $3.50, you get $350 if it wins. That's easy. But I still don't know how to work out the 'laying' part of it. How much money do you bet and wouldn't you have to pay $350 if the horse wins? That's what I meant by paying extra money.

In the example, as a layer if the horse wins, the layer pays out the $350, on which the winning punter pays a commission to Betfair. However, if the horse loses, the layer wins $100 (the stake money) on which they pay Betfair a commission. In the case of a 5% commission rate (the maximum) then if the horse wins a commission of $12.50 (5% x $250) and if the horse loses a commission of $5 (5% x $100) to Betfair.

And if you're smart enough it is possible to pay both punter and layer on the same horse and profit if the horse loses or wins.

Think I'll just stick to betting to win.

Forget the comission stuff to Betfair - let me elaborate to see if I can get you to get it proplerly Sportz.

Back to the example - you put $100 on the horse at $3.50, collect $3.50. If you want to LAY the horse, but the maximum you wish to risk is still only $100, then you lay it at $3.50 and allow the punter to have only $40 on it with you, because them having $40 on it with you means if it wins you lose $100 (3.50 * 40 = 140 - $40 stake). So by laying it if it loses you would win $40, and risk $100 to do so, whereas if you risked your $100 on it to win you'd profit $250 should it do so. The difference is - of course - that a horse at odds of $3.50 will lose more times than it will win.

Does that help? Keep asking, Sportz, we'll crack it yet.

Duritz.

Ah, that's better. Thanks Duritz. Now I get it.

Good. So, when Heavyweight said if we run a pick a loser comp, he said that

"Points could be awarded based on the horse's starting price. For example, someone might nominate a runner to lose, and it duly loses at $3.00(SP). The player would score 33 points. On the other hand, if the horse won, 67 points would be deducted."

So in a comp like that, the shorter the horse is that gets beat, the better you have gone.

Also, we could run it as a comp where they thereotically LAY the horse to risk $100, at whatever it starts at on the tote. So if it starts at $3.00 and gets beat, they are +$50 (because they would have let someone have $50 on it with them, risking $100 at $3.00) and if it wins they are -$100.

I think it's a great idea - however I must say with all due respect that I don't really have time to run it, if that's OK with everyone. Is there someone who would like to run it?

Duritz.

Duritz/Heavyweight: I'm happy to give it a go along the lines suggested by the Heavyweight along the following lines;

Lays Of The Day Contest
Two races each Saturday nominating between one and three horses in each race that won’t win.

Points awarded according to Official Starting Price based on betting to return $100 (100 points)

If that's Ok, start it this week, nominating one race in Melbourne (which will be the Lightning Stakes) and one in Sydney (which will be the Clissold Stakes).

I'll post under a seperate heading as well.

Okay, getting back to the Ratings Challenge, here's what I think we should do.

I know the Lightning is definitely the biggest race this week, but there's a lot of confusion over the Flemington meeting with doubts on the weather and state of the track and even if it will actually go ahead. As a result, I think we should have a go at Rosehill this week instead. It will be good for a change in any case. These are the two races I've chosen:

ROSEHILL RACE 7 - SPASA NSW FREDERICK CLISSOLD STAKES 1200 M ($101200)
1 DESERT WAR Gai Waterhouse C Munce 7 57.5
2 INSPIRE Clarry Conners J Cassidy 3 55
3 MUSTARD George Crowley R M Quinn 8 54.5
4 PATEZZA Guy Walter L Cassidy 1 54.5
5 DAMIGOS Gerald Ryan J Ford 9 53.5
6 PRESENTLY Bruce McLachlan Z Purton 6 53
7 TIMBOURINA Tony Wildman J Innes 4 52.5
8 UTZON Les Bridge R Stewart 10 52
9 COOL FRONT John O'Shea D Beadman 2 52
10 JAMIESON VALLEY Gwenda Markwell D McLellan 5 52

ROSEHILL RACE 8 - FEB 26, NOVA 969 PARTY MARQUEE HANDICAP 1500 M ($60000)
1 COUNTY TYRONE Kris Lees 9 62
2 JEREMIAD John Hawkes 13 58
3 SATURDAY FEVER Tony McEvoy C Munce 2 56
4 SEUL AMOUR (NZ) Graeme Rogerson J Cassidy 8 55
5 DIAL TONES Jack Denham J Innes 4 54.5
6 LEG IRONS Alicia Willick H Bowman 1 54.5
7 SUNSHINE SAM (NZ) John Hawkes 11 54.5
8 DIAMOND SUN (NZ) Darren Smith D McLellan 6 53
9 DESERT RANSOM John Hawkes 3 53
10 MAHTOUM Kim Moore J Ford 7 53
11 CHAINSAW CHARLIE Gai Waterhouse L Cassidy 10 53
12 KEEPING THE FAITH Robert Price Z Purton 5 53
13 VERB (NZ) Jack Denham C Agnew 12 53

Hope you guys don't mind rating these Sydney races this week. I think it will make things easier.

ROSEHILL RACE 7 - SPASA NSW FREDERICK CLISSOLD STAKES 1200 M ($101200)
1 Desert War (7) $3.99
9 Cool Front (2) $6.49
4 Patezza (1) $8.69
3 Mustard (8) $8.69
8 Utzon (10) $8.95

ROSEHILL RACE 8 - FEB 26, NOVA 969 PARTY MARQUEE HANDICAP 1500 M ($60000)
2 Jeremiad (13) $5.54
1 County Tyrone (9) $7.08
4 Seul Amour (NZ) (8) $7.57
6 Leg Irons (1) $8.88
8 Diamond Sun (NZ) (6) $10.49

Fine with me - any idea what the sydney track will be? Also, I notice in Melbourne that Group 1 Cool Trent is in............... LAY!!!!!